Low HR Training

12

MAF test (Read 499 times)


Happy

    1st MAF test 1/27/2009 after running LHR for only a week or two: Outside on flat loop course, MAF131 Mile 1: 10:54/mile, AVG HR 129 Mile 2: 10:56/mile, AVG HR 129 Mile 3: 11:15/mile, AVG HR 130 Mile 4: 11:12mile, AVG HR 130 2nd MAF test 2/17/2009. Gym Treadmill, adjusted MAF126. m1, 12:15 miles/min, AVHR 122 m2, 12:30 mile/min, AVHR 125 m3, 12:50 mile/min, AVHR 125 m4, 13:25 mile/min, AVHR 125 3rd MAF test 3/09/2009. Gym Treadmill, MAF126. m1, 12:05 miles/min, AVHR 124 m2, 12:22 miles/min, AVHR 124 m3, 12:52 miles/min, AVHR 124 4th MAF-test 4/29/2009, Outside Fl.Spr.Loop, adjusted MAF121. m1, 13:05, AVHR 120 5/11/2009, Outside Fl Spr Loop, MAF121. m1, 13:21, AVHR 120 m2,, 13:29, AVHR 121 m3, 13:39, AVHR 120 (m4, 13:09, AVHR 119) This mile was not performed on the same loop, I was running back home.
    5K, 4/28/07 24:16 PR 10K, 5/5/07 49:23 PR 1/2 M, 12/08/07 1:49:34 PR Marathon, 12/09/06 3:57:37 BQ 50K, 10/04/2009 7:27:00 PB 40M, 4/17/2010 11:20:00 PB


    2011 Redding (CA)

      Flower ... please interpret the results of your MAF tests. On the surface, your pace dropped slightly between Test 2 and Test 3 (MAF = 126) but increased between Test 4 and Test 5 (MAF = 121) despite a lower MAF. Not sure about your age (none of my business) but why have you changed your MAF from 131 to 126 to 121? Some of variations, I guess, might be due to some tests conducted "inside" and some "outside".

      2011 Redding Marathon (CA),  2011 Yakima Marathon (WA),  2011 Eugene Marathon (OR),  2011 Newport Marathon (OR)

      2011 Pacific Crest Marathon (OR),  2011 Smith Rock Summer Classic Half (OR),  2011 Haulin' Aspen Trail Half (OR)

      2011 Running is for the Birds 10Km (OR),  2011 Sunriver Marathon (OR)


      Happy

        Hi Stephen, I am 49 - no secret. Running at my age graded MAF felt "wrong" - like I was struggling too much to keep the pace near 131, I was injured and decided it would be right to subtract 5 from 131 according to "the rules" as set out by Maffetone, thus 126. After seeing the minor improvement in pace between test 2 and 3 I started to panic - I didn't think it was significant enough. I decided that dropping it by another 5 points would take me to a level of running that would bring improvements faster. I concluded after test 3 that I was still overtraining and needed to add more recovery time into my program as well. When I started running at MAF121 (my current MAF) it was very difficult. 126 was manageable and doable but 121 was/is difficult. I still have to do a lot of walking in order to stay below. It can be discouraging but on good days I can run/jog the majority of the workout. It is very disappointing not to see improvements in my MAF tests after having down-shifted to 121. I feel like I am in no-man's land. However, I like how consistent my pace was yesterday during the test - dropping off incrementally as the test progresses following a normal to be expected Cardiac Drift. I don't think I have tested appropriately at MAF121 until yesterday so I will continue with MAF121 for a while longer and try to do a test again perhaps weekly for a little while to get some more data to compare. I hope this answers some questions for you - otherwise, feel free to ask more. How is your own maffing? Are you making progress?
        5K, 4/28/07 24:16 PR 10K, 5/5/07 49:23 PR 1/2 M, 12/08/07 1:49:34 PR Marathon, 12/09/06 3:57:37 BQ 50K, 10/04/2009 7:27:00 PB 40M, 4/17/2010 11:20:00 PB


        2011 Redding (CA)

          Thanks Flower ... that makes a lot of sense. After watching my pace bounce around quite a bit, I've adopted a slightly different approach to MAF testing. You can visit this link ( http://hamiltonweb.org/id800.html ) to track the results. Mindful of Maffetone's remarks, I test once each week (Monday) at about the same time, and on the same road (outside) course. This allows me to throw out the "highs and lows" created by snow, wind, heat, etc and get a better picture. Not for everyone, but works for me. Second, I found after experimenting that running by "pace" was more efficient than "heart rate". In other words, rather than keep an eye on the monitor (speed up, slow down, speed up, slow down), I would find a "pace" which most often kept my heart rate with the proper limits. After a few weeks at this "pace", I discovered my heart rate dropping ... I could run the same pace at a lower heart rate. So ... the next month I dropped the "pace" a little and stayed within the MAF test limits. Third, my goal is not "fat burning" but running faster marathons. OK, many others also have that goal, but I'm not wed to "just" LHR training. Four months of the year (Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb) I concentrate on LHR training ("almost" no racing). It is pretty easy to LHR train in the snow and on the ice. But, starting in March, I begin to follow Brad Hudson's Masters Marathon Plan (Run Faster), which involves tempo runs and intervals. And yes, other paces above the MAF test limits. To my surprise, however, the MAF tests for March and April have continued to improve. (I'll do my first MAF test for May this coming Wednesday.) Jesse and Jimmy (among others) have used a mixture of "paces" quite successfully over the years, and that seems to be working for me (at least for now). As Maffetone says, too much anaerobic work reduces the aerobic capacity, but there are a number of AEROBIC heart rates within the MAP (most aerobic pace) and MEP (most efficient pace) zones. For eight months of the year, I try to run 80% (or more) of my training runs in the AEROBIC zone and 20% (or less) of my training runs in the ANAEROBIC zone. The other four months (LHR training), I try to follow a 90/10 ratio. Don't be discouraged. Our bodies are different and the results will vary between each of us. And you are making progress.

          2011 Redding Marathon (CA),  2011 Yakima Marathon (WA),  2011 Eugene Marathon (OR),  2011 Newport Marathon (OR)

          2011 Pacific Crest Marathon (OR),  2011 Smith Rock Summer Classic Half (OR),  2011 Haulin' Aspen Trail Half (OR)

          2011 Running is for the Birds 10Km (OR),  2011 Sunriver Marathon (OR)

          BeeRunB


            Third, my goal is not "fat burning" but running faster marathons.
            Bingo. Brilliant. Right on. "PR burning" I don't think much about Fat-burning either; almost every run I do, I'm looking to beat the run before on the same course, whether I'm training, racing, using HR or not. Thinking about fat-burning is like thinking about saliva production. I tried thinking about saliva production for a month, ended up drooling a lot. MAF training is a means to an end, but in the "not any means to end" frame-of-mind. (say the following in Stephen Hawking's trademark voice) Getting there without sacrificing structural integrity. --Jimmy


            2011 Redding (CA)

              Flower ... after a little more thought, I'd suggest you read a relatively new book on "running" by Brad Hudson and Matt Fitzgerald. Hudson is the coach of Dathan Ritzenhein (top American finisher in the 2008 Beijing Olympics marathon) and Matt Fitzgerald is the senior editor of Triathlete magazine and a very gifted writer. Here is the book information: Run Faster From the 5K to the Marathon, Hudson/Fitzgerald, Broadway Books, 2008 (ISBN: 978-0-7679-2822-9). My point is recommending this book is this -- we develop our cardiovascular (and other "running" systems) by "gently" pushing them beyond their present limits, and follow that stressing with rest (recovery). With due respect to Maffetone, Middleman, Allen and others who advocate LHR training, a controlled program of stress (faster paces) and recovery develop both the aerobic (fat--burning) and anaerobic (sugar-burning) systems. Hudson/Fitzgerald suggest that it is a combination of "paces" (different types of training runs) which produce the best results and what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another. They advocate "being your own coach" and developing a plan which works best for you. Although they do offer a few "sample" training programs, they do NOT tell you which pace (times) to run. Instead, they suggest you download a "pace chart" from the McMillan Running Company web site and they see what works. One interesting point with Hudson's programs. Nearly 80% of your training runs are within the AEROBIC training zones (calculated with the Karvonen method ... reserve heart rate). I know that Maffetone, a chiropractor, says there is no scientific basis for the Karvonen method, developed by a physician, but also says his 180-formula was derived by working backwards with test data. There is lots of "oxygen consumption" research (lab studies) which verify a strong correlation between the Karvonen heart rate zones and VO2 max. Forget the technical stuff ... it is a good read and helps to explain how to improve over time in terms of aerobic and anaerobic capacity. Even the elite athletes want to run at lower heart rates and consume as much fat during a race as possible. I guess there are multiple opinions on which training methods are most effective. Maybe continually running slowly teaches your body to ... well ... continually run slowly. You might also consider running every other day. The in-between days can be complete rest (an approach I favor) for cross-training (which can be lots of fun).

              2011 Redding Marathon (CA),  2011 Yakima Marathon (WA),  2011 Eugene Marathon (OR),  2011 Newport Marathon (OR)

              2011 Pacific Crest Marathon (OR),  2011 Smith Rock Summer Classic Half (OR),  2011 Haulin' Aspen Trail Half (OR)

              2011 Running is for the Birds 10Km (OR),  2011 Sunriver Marathon (OR)

              BeeRunB


                My point is recommending this book is this -- we develop our cardiovascular (and other "running" systems) by "gently" pushing them beyond their present limits, and follow that stressing with rest (recovery). With due respect to Maffetone, Middleman, Allen and others who advocate LHR training
                Maffetone and Allen advocate MAF training during the aerobic base phase, and both include anaerobic work in their methods. It's not all sub MAF training. Maffetone only suggests prolonging the base phase when it is needed, as in the case of over-training, coming off injury, and aerobic deficiency. Both include "race seasons." This method is NOT about running slowly, it's about building aerobic speed, while maintaining health. When done properly, you can get pretty fast at MAF. Most don't do the program properly. They don't give a long enough initial base period, and return to the hard stuff too quickly, and sometimes to their states of over-training, injury, and aerobic deficiency as well (which is often what brings people to the method). If you look at Mark Allen's training, you don't see a guy just doing sub-MAF running all the time. There was a period initially, when he had to put in a longer base period (6 months), but after that, he would religiously do aprox. 12 weeks (after a few months rest) at the beginning of training, then start to include fartlek, etc. He would return to pure MAF training if he found his MAF tests going backwards (he tested throughout the year). Maffetone talks about the 220-age MHR formulas as being unfounded in figuring out MHR. That often they are way off the mark. I haven't seen mention of the Karvonen formula in his writings, but only that if you are using any formula to figure out MHR, then you might be making a huge mistake. Maffetone explains often, and in detail, that his formula was derived from hundreds of RQ tests given to his athletes, and that it is a formula that gets an athlete into a range where you are using slow twitch muscle fibers almost exclusively. It has nothing to do with MHR, or any specific relationship to MHR. It's apples and oranges. Maffetone does suggest doing tempo runs and intervals, but not going over 90% MHR, as he found that his athletes got the same anaerobic results staying at or below 90% as they did when they pounded at 95% and above. He also suggests keeping the session short. I think the one key element you can take with you is the MAF test. Try any training set-up you want, but keep in touch with the test. I believe it is the best indicator of your aerobic fitness. I believe the most important thing is honest self-assessment. I know guys that keep running themselves into injury, serious ones that force them into long layoffs of 6 weeks or more. They always go back to the way they trained before, thinking that the injuries are what happens when you strive for greatness. They are inevitable. When they start to feel pain here and there in their body, they "run through it." The thought of cutting bac, or running at a HR that would reduce stress, is a remote idea to both them and their coaches. Some I know drink like frat boys and think it has no effect on their running. They never take lifestyle stress into account. The essence of Maffetone's ideas is this honest assessment. I never thought the stress of dealing with an ailing father could throw me into a severe state of over-training and aerobic deficiency. It did, BECAUSE I wasn't being honest with my MAF tests at the time, and continued to train as if nothing was wrong. I just went through another stressful time, but this time I cut way back, and I continued to improve on very little mileage, and am still improving on the lowest amount of mileage I've ever done. That's the essence of the training. It took me awhile to learn it. --Jimmy


                2011 Redding (CA)

                  Thanks Jimmy. Good comments. Soooo many things can affect the MAF test results, but over time they do tell the truth about fitness (or lack thereof). If memory serves me correctly, Van Aaken said to stay below 160 bpm in "training". Races are a different critter, as you and Jesse have demonstrated.

                  2011 Redding Marathon (CA),  2011 Yakima Marathon (WA),  2011 Eugene Marathon (OR),  2011 Newport Marathon (OR)

                  2011 Pacific Crest Marathon (OR),  2011 Smith Rock Summer Classic Half (OR),  2011 Haulin' Aspen Trail Half (OR)

                  2011 Running is for the Birds 10Km (OR),  2011 Sunriver Marathon (OR)


                  Happy

                    Thanks Flower ... that makes a lot of sense. After watching my pace bounce around quite a bit, I've adopted a slightly different approach to MAF testing. You can visit this link ( http://hamiltonweb.org/id800.html ) to track the results. Mindful of Maffetone's remarks, I test once each week (Monday) at about the same time, and on the same road (outside) course. This allows me to throw out the "highs and lows" created by snow, wind, heat, etc and get a better picture. Not for everyone, but works for me. Second, I found after experimenting that running by "pace" was more efficient than "heart rate". In other words, rather than keep an eye on the monitor (speed up, slow down, speed up, slow down), I would find a "pace" which most often kept my heart rate with the proper limits. After a few weeks at this "pace", I discovered my heart rate dropping ... I could run the same pace at a lower heart rate. So ... the next month I dropped the "pace" a little and stayed within the MAF test limits. Third, my goal is not "fat burning" but running faster marathons. OK, many others also have that goal, but I'm not wed to "just" LHR training. Four months of the year (Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb) I concentrate on LHR training ("almost" no racing). It is pretty easy to LHR train in the snow and on the ice. But, starting in March, I begin to follow Brad Hudson's Masters Marathon Plan (Run Faster), which involves tempo runs and intervals. And yes, other paces above the MAF test limits. To my surprise, however, the MAF tests for March and April have continued to improve. (I'll do my first MAF test for May this coming Wednesday.) Jesse and Jimmy (among others) have used a mixture of "paces" quite successfully over the years, and that seems to be working for me (at least for now). As Maffetone says, too much anaerobic work reduces the aerobic capacity, but there are a number of AEROBIC heart rates within the MAP (most aerobic pace) and MEP (most efficient pace) zones. For eight months of the year, I try to run 80% (or more) of my training runs in the AEROBIC zone and 20% (or less) of my training runs in the ANAEROBIC zone. The other four months (LHR training), I try to follow a 90/10 ratio. Don't be discouraged. Our bodies are different and the results will vary between each of us. And you are making progress.
                    I am sorry to have been away all day. I read this post from you earlier in the day and then came back to find you and Jimmy having a conversation - it's really great to hear from you. I looked at your MAF tests and also at your impressive list of Marathons etc. - it was a quick look, I didn't have time to look in detail; needless to say, you have a lot of experience with training for and racing in the Marathon. Did I see a course personal record for the Eugene Marathon in April/2009?! How many times have you run that Marathon? What do you think was the reason(s) that you set a new course PR this year? For how long have you been incorporating 4 months of LHR training into your annual running program? Thank you for the book title and review (Hudson/Fitzgerald). I am definitely going to read it - I have followed Ritzenhein's marathon success in Beijing as well as recently in London; I watched the London Marathon live online at 3 am that morning - it was unfortunate that Ritz didn't live up to his own expectations of being in 2:06-2:07 shape on that day; but he still ran a rock solid marathon and made me very excited for him as well as for Meb. Ritz has had relatively good luck with running injury free in the last few years - I am assuming that it is due to his coaching by Brad Hudson? I loved how much attention Universal Sports gave the female elite marathoners during the London Marathon; that's much more interesting to me than the men's race. Mikitenko was superb in that race. First time I've had a chance to see her compete in the Marathon. I look forward to seeing her compete in Berlin in September against Paula Radcliff and our very own, Kara Goucher. It's going to be a thriller - if they will please, all stay healthy so they can race come race day! Fat-burning is a not the end goal obviously for us who wish to be competitive age group marathoners. Being an efficient fat burner is however necessary in order to reach the primary goal. So there, we are back to maffing. Your suggestion to do a test weekly is a good one - being mindful of not obsessing, like Maffetone warns us. It just gives more data to compare and like you mentioned, we can weed out the odd one's that are off pattern due to weather, life stress or other things that impact the test. I know Jimmy tests frequently as well. In the past I have had the experience of getting a huge boost in my general running pace by running tempo runs once a week. I am looking forward to getting back to doing some different kinds of runs again in the future but I intend to stay put with maffing a little longer. I still experience some pain and exagerated soreness in some of my previously injured areas once in a while - I want to get completely out of being injured before I start tempos or intervals. In the meantime, while maffing I have experimented with some faster leg turnover on downhills, some 15-20sec pick-ups or strides at the end of a maf-run. I haven't noticed that they have done me any good except for the fun I have while doing them. After the 15-20 sec strides I hurt in a few places and it took me longer to recover than a normal maf-run. I appreciate all of your suggestions and your kindness today, especially this: "Don't be discouraged. Our bodies are different and the results will vary between each of us. And you are making progress." It's very encouraging to hear it from you - someone who has run 70 marathons Smile There is a 72 year old woman in my running club who has run many marathons and hundreds of other races in her lifetime (she started runnning when she was in her 50s). She qualifies for Boston every year and runs many marathons every year. She once said that one of the most important pieces of advise she would give another runner is to keep running - just keep running; sometimes you win, sometimes you loose, but just keep running. I often think about it. When you have a long period of problematic running you can easily get discouraged and entertain in your mind the thought of giving up. If you give up you will never experience the success that you may if you have a more long term perspective. Thanks again!
                    5K, 4/28/07 24:16 PR 10K, 5/5/07 49:23 PR 1/2 M, 12/08/07 1:49:34 PR Marathon, 12/09/06 3:57:37 BQ 50K, 10/04/2009 7:27:00 PB 40M, 4/17/2010 11:20:00 PB


                    Happy

                      Jimmy writes: (Bold added by me)
                      Maffetone and Allen advocate MAF training during the aerobic base phase, and both include anaerobic work in their methods. It's not all sub MAF training. Maffetone only suggests prolonging the base phase when it is needed, as in the case of over-training, coming off injury, and aerobic deficiency. Both include "race seasons." This method is NOT about running slowly, it's about building aerobic speed, while maintaining health. When done properly, you can get pretty fast at MAF. Most don't do the program properly. They don't give a long enough initial base period, and return to the hard stuff too quickly, and sometimes to their states of over-training, injury, and aerobic deficiency as well (which is often what brings people to the method). If you look at Mark Allen's training, you don't see a guy just doing sub-MAF running all the time. There was a period initially, when he had to put in a longer base period (6 months), but after that, he would religiously do aprox. 12 weeks (after a few months rest) at the beginning of training, then start to include fartlek, etc. He would return to pure MAF training if he found his MAF tests going backwards (he tested throughout the year).
                      Jimmy, I think those things in bold are important for me, don't you? I feel I need to stick with pretty basic maffing until I find a way to improve on the MAF tests over a period of time, at least a couple of months of improvement, before I begin to think about going above MAF and doing anaerobic workouts. I have finally reached a point where I have let go of my high mileage - and I am fine with it. I know I can build it back up again - that's probably one of the easiest things for me to do; so it is OK not to do high mileage right now. High mileage now is not what I need - and you've taught me that. Thanks, Man Smile
                      5K, 4/28/07 24:16 PR 10K, 5/5/07 49:23 PR 1/2 M, 12/08/07 1:49:34 PR Marathon, 12/09/06 3:57:37 BQ 50K, 10/04/2009 7:27:00 PB 40M, 4/17/2010 11:20:00 PB
                      BeeRunB


                        Jimmy writes: (Bold added by me) Jimmy, I think those things in bold are important for me, don't you? I feel I need to stick with pretty basic maffing until I find a way to improve on the MAF tests over a period of time, at least a couple of months of improvement, before I begin to think about going above MAF and doing anaerobic workouts. I have finally reached a point where I have let go of my high mileage - and I am fine with it. I know I can build it back up again - that's probably one of the easiest things for me to do; so it is OK not to do high mileage right now. High mileage now is not what I need - and you've taught me that. Thanks, Man Smile
                        If you stick with it, keep the hard /EASY! thing going, things will start to move in a positive direction. Less time on your feet as you are doing now will also help you progress through the summer months. You and I are in the same boat right now--we are about the same age--looks like we both have a few years of running under our belts--and we are both coming off overtraining syndromes. I've been making progress back to health and aerobic speed, and I believe that you will also, just be religious about the EASY! days. I never thought 30 minutes would work like a charm, but right now it does. And remember, that there are aerobic adaptions during a 30-minute run. It's not going backwards. Keep going, Flower! --Jimmy p.s. make sure you keep up on your iron, and don't overdo the caffeine.


                        Happy

                          Thanks, Jimmy - I am finally beginning to get the EASY! thing. I am still not sure if ellipticaling is helping me or holding me back. I am experimenting a little - perhaps I will drop the elliptical/crosstraining and substitute for complete OFF on those days. It will depend on what my MAFtests say and how I feel - if sore or fatigued I will take more time off. I ran only 3 days last week. It's max every second day that I run now. I am still unsure what to do with myself on the off days - there is so much I can do including lying down on my bed to take an afternoon nap or get up a little later in the morning.
                          5K, 4/28/07 24:16 PR 10K, 5/5/07 49:23 PR 1/2 M, 12/08/07 1:49:34 PR Marathon, 12/09/06 3:57:37 BQ 50K, 10/04/2009 7:27:00 PB 40M, 4/17/2010 11:20:00 PB


                          Happy

                            You might also consider running every other day. The in-between days can be complete rest (an approach I favor) for cross-training (which can be lots of fun).
                            Istvan, This suggestion is spot on for me - I am currently experimenting with this to see what it will do for me. On your running days do you run high mileage? Do you use the frequent marathons as your long training runs or do you race them?
                            5K, 4/28/07 24:16 PR 10K, 5/5/07 49:23 PR 1/2 M, 12/08/07 1:49:34 PR Marathon, 12/09/06 3:57:37 BQ 50K, 10/04/2009 7:27:00 PB 40M, 4/17/2010 11:20:00 PB
                            BeeRunB


                              Thanks, Jimmy - I am finally beginning to get the EASY! thing. I am still not sure if ellipticaling is helping me or holding me back. I am experimenting a little - perhaps I will drop the elliptical/crosstraining and substitute for complete OFF on those days. It will depend on what my MAFtests say and how I feel - if sore or fatigued I will take more time off. I ran only 3 days last week. It's max every second day that I run now. I am still unsure what to do with myself on the off days - there is so much I can do including lying down on my bed to take an afternoon nap or get up a little later in the morning.
                              Remember, it's total exercise, not just running. If you run 90 minutes, then do elliptical one hour+ the next, you haven't done an easy day. Try making your easy days 30 minutes total exercise, or rest completely. --Jimmy


                              Happy

                                Maybe I'll just skip the elliptical for now - I get the picture now, total exercise has to be kept low on the recovery days - I can see how I can easily get addicted to the elliptical if I don't watch out. Better to stay away from it until I see progress with my running. Complete rest sounds good - rest is relative anyway with the stressfull lifestyle I have. This is great!
                                5K, 4/28/07 24:16 PR 10K, 5/5/07 49:23 PR 1/2 M, 12/08/07 1:49:34 PR Marathon, 12/09/06 3:57:37 BQ 50K, 10/04/2009 7:27:00 PB 40M, 4/17/2010 11:20:00 PB
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