Low HR Training

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breathing harder at a given HR as I get faster? (Read 673 times)

gregw


    I've noticed over the years that my breathing rhythm seems to have increased as my times have improved. MAF HR started out at somewhere between 5-5 and 4-4 (steps breathing in - steps breathing out) and is now probably between 4-4 and 3-3. Have others experienced this? Part of the reason I ask is that I've had a semi-sudden improvement in pace at a given heart rate and I'm wondering if it's real because my breathing is harder than I'm used to at a given heart rate. I did a marathon pace run on Saturday and found myself needed 2-2 breathing even though my heart rate was below my normal marathon heart rate. Considering I ran 21k at MP, I felt pretty good. I didn't feel like doing it again, but you should be pretty tired halfway though a marathon. My big worry is that I'll run out of glycogen and bonk if I attempt a marathon at this pace, sacrificing my long sought BQ (3:15). Here are my splits. (The middle part is 21k run on the Potomac River Run marathon course -- out and back to permanent marker at the 10.5k turnaround.) warmup - 9:24/154, 9:07/131 -- wonky HRM first mile 7:18/155, 7:18 /162, 7:14/164, 6:59/164, 7:09/166, 7:02/168, 7:15/168, 7:09/167, 7:31/168,7:18/167, 7:10/169, 7:04/167, 7:06/168, 0:45/171 (0.10) cooldown - 8:47/153, 8:28/150 Here are the splits from the Frederick marathon I ran in May for comparison 7:35/157, 7:21/168, 7:31/170, 7:34/169, 7:26/170, 7:26/171, 7:23/171, 7:28/171, 7:34/171, 7:32/171, 7:26/172, 7:38/172, 7:43/172, 7:40/173, 7:31/173, 7:29/173, 8:04/173, 7:35/173, 8:14/174, 7:53/174, 7:42/173, 7:56/173, 7:57/174, 7:40/176, 8:10/176, 7:58/175, 2:24/180. I'm pretty excited about the speed improvement, but I'm also nervous that I'll go out to fast using my normal HR plan and end up bonking. Any advice?
      Hey Greg, I'm not really sure I can add much with regards to the breathing part, as I haven't really noticed much of a difference over the past 2 years. Ok...let me revise that. Since getting into shape, I haven't really noticed much of a difference. I recall trying to run on a treadmill with my HR at about 165 for 15 minutes and I thought I was going to pass out. Now 165 is the first mile of a marathon. Smile Your HR given the pace is definitely encouraging. Unless the marathon last May was in hot temperatures, I think you are definitely capable of 3:15. Keep in mind that you (likely) haven't tapered at all, and during a race it's always easier (for me at least) to run at a harder pace. Marathon pace during a normal run always feeds pretty hard for me, but come race day I find myself having to hold back. I think that's true for most of us who train very aerobically. Smile When/where is your next marathon at?
      BeeRunB


        warmup - 9:24/154, 9:07/131 -- wonky HRM first mile 7:18/155, 7:18 /162, 7:14/164, 6:59/164, 7:09/166, 7:02/168, 7:15/168, 7:09/167, 7:31/168,7:18/167, 7:10/169, 7:04/167, 7:06/168, 0:45/171 (0.10) cooldown - 8:47/153, 8:28/150 Here are the splits from the Frederick marathon I ran in May for comparison 7:35/157, 7:21/168, 7:31/170, 7:34/169, 7:26/170, 7:26/171, 7:23/171, 7:28/171, 7:34/171, 7:32/171, 7:26/172, 7:38/172, 7:43/172, 7:40/173, 7:31/173, 7:29/173, 8:04/173, 7:35/173, 8:14/174, 7:53/174, 7:42/173, 7:56/173, 7:57/174, 7:40/176, 8:10/176, 7:58/175, 2:24/180. I'm pretty excited about the speed improvement, but I'm also nervous that I'll go out to fast using my normal HR plan and end up bonking. Any advice?
        You have to do 7:29 pace or better to BQ. Your MRP run was about 7:11 (quick averaging in my head). which equates to a 3:08. Here's a suggestion: --if the 3:15:19 BQ is your goal, then make a pace plan for a 3:13 marathon--7:22 pace. Try to go through the first half with a 7:25-7:26 pace or 1:37:00, making sure the added pace time happened in the first 3-4 miles. If you are truly in 3:08-3:12 fitness, then you will smoke the last 10k of the race. If you are in more of a 3:15 fitness, you will slow a bit, but you will have a 2-3 minute cushion. --Personally, I think if you use the same HR plan as Frederick's, you will be constricting your back half. Start a little lower and be willing to be at your 10k HR for the last 10k, your 5k HR for the last few miles, no matter how hard it is. --If you use pace, here's a plan for 3:13. It's impossible to keep to a mile by mile pace plan, some will be faster, some slower (hills, wind). The five mile splits are important. Make sure you are on time for each, making sure not to be faster in the first 3 miles and first 5 mile split. If you're a bit slower, you'll catch up. Keep a little sheet with you with the splits. Even iif you are using a HR plan, you can use a pace plan to make sure you are on time for your goal, perhaps even pushing yourself harder in the end than you thought you could: MILE.......SPLITS..........5-mile splits 1............0:07:50 2............0:07:40 3............0:07:30...........0:23:00 4............0:07:20 5............0:07:20............0:37:40 6............0:07:20 7............0:07:20 8............0:07:20 9............0:07:20 10..........0:07:20............1:14:20 11..........0:07:20 12..........0:07:20 13..........0:07:20............1:36:20 13.1.......0:00:48............1:37:08 14..........0:07:20 15..........0:07:20............1:51:00 16..........0:07:20 17..........0:07:20 18..........0:07:20 19..........0:07:20 20..........0:07:20............2:27:40 21..........0:07:20 22..........0:07:20 23..........0:07:20 24..........0:07:15 25..........0:07:15............3:04:10 (if you are on time and feeling good, BQ is in bag) 26..........0:07:15 26.2.......0:01:35 Total......3:13:00 1st half=1:37:08 2nd half=1:35:52 Good luck, Greg! --Jimmy
          Agree with Jimmy in a big way. Don't let the HRM fool you and don't get sucked into a "hey, i can go faster than 3:15" mindset as you run the first 10 miles. You know the marathon karma, your actions in the first half trigger reactions in the second. I thought I had a 3:15 in me for Marine Corps, and probably did, but went out a little too fast in the first 8 hilly miles and found that my tank was pretty low in the last 6. I'll have a chance for a do-over and will stick to the splits rather than the giddiness of feeling fast. So what is your goal? Trying for the fastest marathon you can run is risky because if you go over the edge, you'll crack like an egg and seems like a bad strategy if your real goal is to hit 3:15. And if your goal is 3:15, then your marathon pace run was nothing of the sort. It was a long tempo, which might explain why you were breathing harder. I'm big into the HR, but you know you have to be careful because it's not always the best measurement of effort. Today's 160 is tomorrow's 168, or vice versa. Why not just practice running 7:25-27 pace once a week to get used to it? I'm not sure I would even mess with 3:13 given your ongoing BQ chase. Just get to the 20 mile marker a minute or so ahead of your 3:15 pace and then let it go. Oh, and stop it with the frickin' metric. This is America where we rely on arbitrary and senseless measurements. And if you're going to measure splits in miles, then why the ks? Bad karma. Stop it.
          BeeRunB


            Oh, and stop it with the frickin' metric. This is America where we rely on arbitrary and senseless measurements. And if you're going to measure splits in miles, then why the ks? Bad karma. Stop it.
            And if anyone mentions a "liter bottle" of anything, I'm going to poop in YOUR pants.
            gregw


              Oh, and stop it with the frickin' metric. This is America where we rely on arbitrary and senseless measurements. And if you're going to measure splits in miles, then why the ks? Bad karma. Stop it.
              In my defense, the marathon course I was running on was a double out and back with a permanent start and 10.5k turnaround point. In the future, I'll convert to God's units :-) The Frederick HR plan was definitely aggressive. I was walking the line between giving myself a chance at 3:15:59 and sticking to the usual HR plan. Those early 170's would normally be 168's. Still a 3-minute positive split with the second half hills and wind wasn't too bad as I'm sure Jesse can tell you. Now, of course you guys are right for me to be conservative. 3:15 is the goal without a doubt. Here's the plan. I'm doing the NCR trail marathon on 11/29. The NCR course is a pretty steep downhill the first 2 miles, then 11 miles up a steady 1% grade, 11 miles back down the 1% grade and the 2 miles up the steep hills. My plan is the hit the turnaround at 3:14-3:15 pace and then pick up ~5 secs/mile on the downhill to bank 1-2 minutes for the last two uphill miles. Cross the line at 3:14 and then set a new PR at Boston. If only doing it were as easy as writing it down :-) Thanks for the comments, guys.


              run-easy-race-hard

                The Frederick HR plan was definitely aggressive. I was walking the line between giving myself a chance at 3:15:59 and sticking to the usual HR plan. Those early 170's would normally be 168's. Still a 3-minute positive split with the second half hills and wind wasn't too bad as I'm sure Jesse can tell you.
                A three minute positive split on the current Frederick course means that you were conservative as hell for the whole first half! I run every marathon based on what I have in me that day, not based on an arbitrary factor like a desired time, because I can have a lot of variation from day to day and I always want to do the best I can on that given day. But everyone here knows that. I run by steady heart rate and if there's a lot left in the tank with a few miles left, I'll kick it up a notch, but it almost always results in a slightly positive split. If you're running a hilly race, it's much better to go by effort because you don't want to arbitrarily even your splits if it's a hilly course.
                RER


                  I've noticed over the years that my breathing rhythm seems to have increased as my times have improved. MAF HR started out at somewhere between 5-5 and 4-4 (steps breathing in - steps breathing out) and is now probably between 4-4 and 3-3. Have others experienced this? Part of the reason I ask is that I've had a semi-sudden improvement in pace at a given heart rate and I'm wondering if it's real because my breathing is harder than I'm used to at a given heart rate. ...
                  This is a great topic. Breathing out is obviously important, maybe even more important because of how carbon dioxide regulates breathing and heart rate. Somewhere long ago, Maffetone talked about this pattern of breathing. When I was testing athletes on the treadmill, it was clear that those who exhaled one more step than the number of inhalation steps, their heart rate did not get as high and their fat burning remained higher. It's not dramatic, but it's somewhat significant. I think Maffetone's take on this was about mechanical stress -- if you're always breathing in on the same foot-strike it can increase stress on those joints more. I look at it from a standpoint of the cardiovascular effects, and how metabolism might be affected (fat and sugar burning). I typically breath in for 3 steps, then out 4; or in 4, out 5. If I'm anaerobic I may go to 2-3 (or occasionally 1-2).
                    This is a great topic. Breathing out is obviously important, maybe even more important because of how carbon dioxide regulates breathing and heart rate. Somewhere long ago, Maffetone talked about this pattern of breathing. When I was testing athletes on the treadmill, it was clear that those who exhaled one more step than the number of inhalation steps, their heart rate did not get as high and their fat burning remained higher. It's not dramatic, but it's somewhat significant. I think Maffetone's take on this was about mechanical stress -- if you're always breathing in on the same foot-strike it can increase stress on those joints more. I look at it from a standpoint of the cardiovascular effects, and how metabolism might be affected (fat and sugar burning). I typically breath in for 3 steps, then out 4; or in 4, out 5. If I'm anaerobic I may go to 2-3 (or occasionally 1-2).
                    Interesting. I was monitoring my breathing the other day during a run, and I realized I definitely take longer to exhale than to inhale. Don't most of us do this? (honest question!)
                    RER


                      Interesting. I was monitoring my breathing the other day during a run, and I realized I definitely take longer to exhale than to inhale. Don't most of us do this? (honest question!)
                      Good question. I think we do, naturally. But if we intervene by breathing in 3 steps and out 3 steps, for example, we interfere more with the natural rhythms. That's why I think one more step on exhalation is more natural.
                        Interesting. I was monitoring my breathing the other day during a run, and I realized I definitely take longer to exhale than to inhale. Don't most of us do this? (honest question!)
                        No. That makes you a freak. I breathe in 3 and out 1 like all clean-living trotters. And I sing "Flirtin' with Disaster" to myself the entire run. Jesse, at the risk of criticizing the guru, I think your method of running by feel w/o regard for goal time is terrific in the abstract but not the way to go for Greg who has tried for at least two years to hit the magical 3:15:59. Remember, when we gamble with our time we choose our destiny. (gee that dovetailed well with the mental soundtrack) For this one race, I would take the most conservative route possible to achieve that goal. Greg, you can run by feel in Boston and find out just how miserable that can make you when the course is loaded with "easy" downhill miles at the start of a race. If I wasn't already booked, I'd come pace you for the first 20 -- and then watch you fade into the distance as I reel for breath. But this is the year that I tackle the dreaded JFK 50. The Jesster can handle a marathon a week after 50, but that's out of this hombre's league.
                        gregw


                          Jesse, at the risk of criticizing the guru, I think your method of running by feel w/o regard for goal time is terrific in the abstract but not the way to go for Greg who has tried for at least two years to hit the magical 3:15:59. Remember, when we gamble with our time we choose our destiny. (gee that dovetailed well with the mental soundtrack) For this one race, I would take the most conservative route possible to achieve that goal. Greg, you can run by feel in Boston and find out just how miserable that can make you when the course is loaded with "easy" downhill miles at the start of a race. If I wasn't already booked, I'd come pace you for the first 20 -- and then watch you fade into the distance as I reel for breath. But this is the year that I tackle the dreaded JFK 50. The Jesster can handle a marathon a week after 50, but that's out of this hombre's league.
                          I didn't know you were doing JFK. Excellent! I'm thinking about doing it in 2009. You're right on being conservative. I can run some shorter races in the winter/springand have a good handle on where I'm at heading into Boston (thinking positive!). I've settled on a plan. It's a semi-steep downhill first two miles, 1% uphill grade for 11 miles, 1% down for 11, then semi-steep uphill last two. I figure I should try to hit the turnaround at ~3:14 pace and then bank a minute (5 secs/mile) on the downhill to give myself a couple of minute or two before getting to the uphill. If I feel fantabulous at mile 20 (not bloody likely), I can let I'm sure it will be just as easy to execute as to write down Smile I did 2 x 3 miles (4800 meters for you, James) with 800m rest this morning. I was "supposed" to do HM pace, but I'm feeling a bit fried and kept my HR in the 150s. The 1600 meter splits for the miles were 7:11/152, 7:14/156, 7:13/157 and 7:18/156, 7:21/158, 7:30/158. I don't think I've had this much uncertainty in my fitness level in the last couple of years. It's possible I'm just overbaked and my heart rate is suppressed, but it's also possible I'm just in < 3:10 shape. grabbing that elusive bq should be the first order of business though. 3:10="" shape.="" grabbing="" that="" elusive="" bq="" should="" be="" the="" first="" order="" of="" business=""></ 3:10 shape. grabbing that elusive bq should be the first order of business though.>
                          BeeRunB


                            I didn't know you were doing JFK.
                            Said Arthur Miller to Marilyn Monroe.
                            lowgear1


                            Max McMaffelow Esq.

                              Good one! lg blushing
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