Low HR Training

Maffetone Method Support Thread (Read 3201 times)

    I put that out there as I have seen a post here and there along the way where someone went over their MAF during a base phase, and the posts read like a confession. I feel it's important to keep loose in the mind, and not lose it (just showing off my complete understanding of loose vs. lose)

     

     

    yeah, that is a good point! also, nice show off. Cool

      When are you getting back to higher volumes? Do you have a date with Miss Aerobic Base Phase? Cool

      Ok, I am back in.  You have inspired me.  So, this is going to be my first week of the base phase. 

       

      I am glad I took the time off.  It was hard at first to not run.  But, I really wanted to force myself to "reset".  I think it will be good in the long run for me to have taken the time off.  I did just enough running to keep some fitness.  I once read that as long as you don't completely stop, you can maintain a lot of the fitness you had, even with as little as one or two runs per week.

       

      My plan is to do all "easy" running for the next 8 weeks, mixing in strides every so often.  I am going to run by feel, which means I will probably be running a little above MAF, but I will keep tabs with MAF tests.

      BeeRunB


        Those of you just starting out and struggling to keep your HR under MAF might be interested in this.

         

        I ran a long run today in the first hot, sunny weather of the year, thus

        slowing me down big time as the run went on. It was hot from the start.

        Body was stressed.

         

        I did a lot of walking in order to keep my heart rate down below MAF (126 bpm)--in the last 45 minutes. The last two miles

        was mostly walking with a little running. When I walked, my HR

        would lower to about 122-123 bpm, then I would run until my HR hit MAF,

        then start walking again.

         

        I measured my walking speed at the 122-123, and it was 14:30-ish per mile, about 4.1-4.2mph.

        My running pace in the last 45 minutes at 126 bpm became 16:20 per mile.

         

        By walking, allowing my HR to get down to MAF-4, I was able to run a little faster for those short bursts, stopping when

        my HR reached 126 (it would then go to 127, then drop down as I walked).

         

        This is a good strategy during a strict aerobic base period when trying to keep at and below MAF.

        if you find the slow running 16+ too uncomfortable outside (tiny steps), walk fast.

         

        Also, when walking, I find that my turnover remains quick, and of course, at this point, I moved faster than when I was running. It's all good. The walking helps.

         

        --Jimmy Cool

          yeah, 16min/mile running is less efficient than walking at the same pace..just the movement is not efficient so it will use more oxygen and so on.

           

          when I was doing strict maf base build, I did running at 15min/mile pace initially. it was still better for my laziness than walking briskly below 13min/mile pace.. basically it was uncomfortable and difficult to reach maf hr by walking. so that was pretty borderline trying to choose between running and walking. Smile

           

          it's pretty much individual, someone else may prefer walking really brisk to this very slow running.,

           

          by the way it's cool your hr is that stable, i.e. it only increased by 1bpm after you stopped.

           

          oh and if you have hills that's really really useful at this stage.. walk hard up the hill, enjoying it, at maf (won't be as uncomfortable for the legs to try and get to maf hr as on flat ground), then run down at the downhill part and enjoy the faster turnover while still running at low enough heart rate. Smile (this last note is not for jimmyb as I know he knows all these tricks anyway.)

          BeeRunB


            MAF TEST today

            Improved even though I was a bit porkier, and it was a little hotter in the room today.

            My body seems to be responding to the increased volume and doubles

            thus far (knock on wood and sacrifice a GU, shoelace, and small vial

            of fat to the fire of the running deities). Trying not to get too psyched, but

            my body seems to be ready for it for the first time in a long time (finally--and

            did I mention knock on wood and sacrifice a GU, shoelace, and small vial

            of fat to the fire of the running deities?).

             

            Keep going, Maffers!

            --Jimmy Cool


              MAF TEST today

              Improved even though I was a bit porkier, and it was a little hotter in the room today.

              My body seems to be responding to the increased volume and doubles

              thus far (knock on wood and sacrifice a GU, shoelace, and small vial

              of fat to the fire of the running deities). Trying not to get too psyched, but

              my body seems to be ready for it for the first time in a long time (finally--and

              did I mention knock on wood and sacrifice a GU, shoelace, and small vial

              of fat to the fire of the running deities?).

               

              Keep going, Maffers!

              --Jimmy Cool


               

               

              cool. Smile I'm curious about one thing, did you do MAF/sub-MAF doubles regularly before?

              BeeRunB


                cool. Smile I'm curious about one thing, did you do MAF/sub-MAF doubles regularly before?

                A few training seasons, yes.

                I did my first season of  MAf/Sub MAF doubles (Doublivera) in fall 2006--pretty much all sub-MAF.

                I enjoyed it immensley.  A few running friends have been doing them as of late, and it reminded

                me of much I enjoyed doing them, so I started again.

                 

                --JimmyCool

                  A few training seasons, yes.

                  I did my first season of  MAf/Sub MAF doubles (Doublivera) in fall 2006--pretty much all sub-MAF.

                  I enjoyed it immensley.  A few running friends have been doing them as of late, and it reminded

                  me of much I enjoyed doing them, so I started again.

                   

                  --JimmyCool

                   

                   

                  yeah I've done some doubles lately (first venture into this stuff).. pace/HR around MAF. I do these at 60% vo2max intensity, and at the fitness level I am now that's close to the MAF HR. a while ago this same HR was more like 55% of vo2max or below.

                   

                  so anyway, I agree it's really enjoyable... I find it very addictive Smile

                  tortoise88


                    Hello, I’m new to the group and would like to post my MAF results to date.  But first, an unnecessarily long introduction!

                     

                    Since starting the Maffetone method I’ve been very curious what rate of progress I should expect.  Knowing it is supposed to happen slowly, it can be frustrating if you’re not very sure whether or not you’re doing it right, or even if done right whether the method actually works.  So I was happy to find this group and thread and thought I should contribute my own results.

                     

                    I’m relatively new to running in general and my philosophy has been to keep things as simple as possible because the more complex it is and the more mental energy it requires from me, and the more likely I will be to start blowing it off and doing funner things like sleeping in and smelling roses.  So, I mindlessly run every morning for one hour, almost always the exact same route, and 100% at MAF because that’s what I thought Phil said was best.  When I say the same route, I go in one direction for 28 minutes, then turn around and run home (28 minutes ends up being the halfway point because my pace slows and it’s net uphill on the way back).  So basically every day is an MAF test for me although I don’t keep a log.

                     

                    Although measuring performance every day requires patience because you tend to overreact to not making progress from day to day or even week to week, it does highlight the fact that your MAF pace at any moment in time is highly dependent on many variables, including what you ate yesterday, when you ate it, how much sleep you got, what the weather is like, how stressed you are, whether you are sick at all, and just plain randomness.  So I prefer having a lot of data points to draw an average from rather than doing a single MAF test once a month and not knowing how meaningful it is.

                     

                    In 2009 I started running regularly and did several 5Ks.  My training regimen was to run about 3 miles per workout, 3-4 times a week, and my default goal with each workout was to push myself as much as possible.  I didn’t understand the concept of an “easy” run.  If my breathing wasn’t labored and my legs weren’t burning, I wasn’t trying hard enough.  Learned about HIIT training and did that once or twice a week (basically sprint or near-sprint workouts).  Basically, I dreaded my runs because they were unpleasant, but no pain no gain, right?.  With that approach, my best 5K time was 22:30 but it was clear that it wasn’t going to drop very far below that, at least not without 1000’s of more hours of discomfort.

                     

                    Heard about Maffetone method and although highly skeptical, I was ripe for a radical change.  Started in 2010 at basically 4.5 miles/hour (about 13 minute miles).  Weather/sickness/child-rearing/etc. prevented me from consistently running but I did sense enough mild progress to stick with it.  But I never went more than 3-4 weeks in a row before then taking a month or two off, until late in the year when I was able to run consistently from July through September.  By the end of September I was up to 5.7 miles in an hour.  Sickness/work/holidays compelled me to stop running the last three months of the year but I resolved to train religiously in 2011 and hopefully make some breakthrough progress.

                     

                    Here are my 2011 results so far:

                    First week of January     One hour           4.7m     12:45 minutes/mile

                    First week of February    One hour           5.0m     12:00 minutes/mile

                    First week of March        One hour           5.3m     11:20 minutes/mile

                     

                    I’m pretty disappointed that it’s taking this long to get back to the 5.7 mph I was at last September, but at least it’s good motivation to not take too much time off in the future.  Again, I’m running exclusively at MAF pace in all my runs.  I run Tuesday – Saturday for one hour and two hours on Sunday, so I’m totaling 7 hours and roughly 35 miles per week.  My hope is that by May I’m close to 6.0 miles for the hour run.  Because my pace slows over the hour, my true MAF pace is already pretty close to 10:00 for the first 3 miles and would probably be around 9 if I get to 6 mph.  I haven’t run faster than my MAF pace since late in 2009 so I’m anxious to turn on the jets and run a 5K to see the benefits of my training, but I’m going to wait until I hit 6.0 mph or close to it.

                     

                    I do admit to blowing off the warmup and warmdown.  When I start a run, I set my pace at about where I think my MAF pace is and it takes about a minute for my heart rate to plateau at MAF and when I end my run, I end my run – no beating around the bush!  It doesn’t seem to be keeping me from making progress.  Have others had different experiences with regard to the compulsory warmup/warmdowns?

                     

                    -tortoise88

                       

                       

                      I do admit to blowing off the warmup and warmdown.  When I start a run, I set my pace at about where I think my MAF pace is and it takes about a minute for my heart rate to plateau at MAF and when I end my run, I end my run – no beating around the bush!  It doesn’t seem to be keeping me from making progress.  Have others had different experiences with regard to the compulsory warmup/warmdowns?

                       

                      -tortoise88

                       

                       

                      if it goes to MAF in 1 minute you're starting it too fast and that's why you slow so much throughout the run. you should get to MAF in 10-15minutes, not in one. you can try and run something slower for the first 10-15mins than what you feel your MAF pace is. that could help.

                       

                      but if you don't mind the slowing and it doesn't mess with progress then I guess you can just do that..I myself would get annoyed if my pace went from 10 to 11 in one single hour of running

                       

                      I never cared much for running as cooldown, I just walk as cooldown. walking cooldown just seems to work better for me no matter if the run was MAF or not MAF. this is probably individual

                       

                      as for MAF test: I agree it's better to log your runs and look at them later to find general progress in the runs done at MAF HR. I don't trust one-month MAF test because of what you said and (again an individual thing) it would be too stressful for me mentally

                      BeeRunB


                        Hello, I’m new to the group and would like to post my MAF results to date.  But first, an unnecessarily long introduction!

                         

                        Since starting the Maffetone method I’ve been very curious what rate of progress I should expect.  Knowing it is supposed to happen slowly, it can be frustrating if you’re not very sure whether or not you’re doing it right, or even if done right whether the method actually works.  So I was happy to find this group and thread and thought I should contribute my own results.

                         

                        I’m relatively new to running in general and my philosophy has been to keep things as simple as possible because the more complex it is and the more mental energy it requires from me, and the more likely I will be to start blowing it off and doing funner things like sleeping in and smelling roses.  So, I mindlessly run every morning for one hour, almost always the exact same route, and 100% at MAF because that’s what I thought Phil said was best.  When I say the same route, I go in one direction for 28 minutes, then turn around and run home (28 minutes ends up being the halfway point because my pace slows and it’s net uphill on the way back).  So basically every day is an MAF test for me although I don’t keep a log.

                         

                        Although measuring performance every day requires patience because you tend to overreact to not making progress from day to day or even week to week, it does highlight the fact that your MAF pace at any moment in time is highly dependent on many variables, including what you ate yesterday, when you ate it, how much sleep you got, what the weather is like, how stressed you are, whether you are sick at all, and just plain randomness.  So I prefer having a lot of data points to draw an average from rather than doing a single MAF test once a month and not knowing how meaningful it is.

                         

                        In 2009 I started running regularly and did several 5Ks.  My training regimen was to run about 3 miles per workout, 3-4 times a week, and my default goal with each workout was to push myself as much as possible.  I didn’t understand the concept of an “easy” run.  If my breathing wasn’t labored and my legs weren’t burning, I wasn’t trying hard enough.  Learned about HIIT training and did that once or twice a week (basically sprint or near-sprint workouts).  Basically, I dreaded my runs because they were unpleasant, but no pain no gain, right?.  With that approach, my best 5K time was 22:30 but it was clear that it wasn’t going to drop very far below that, at least not without 1000’s of more hours of discomfort.

                         

                        Heard about Maffetone method and although highly skeptical, I was ripe for a radical change.  Started in 2010 at basically 4.5 miles/hour (about 13 minute miles).  Weather/sickness/child-rearing/etc. prevented me from consistently running but I did sense enough mild progress to stick with it.  But I never went more than 3-4 weeks in a row before then taking a month or two off, until late in the year when I was able to run consistently from July through September.  By the end of September I was up to 5.7 miles in an hour.  Sickness/work/holidays compelled me to stop running the last three months of the year but I resolved to train religiously in 2011 and hopefully make some breakthrough progress.

                         

                        Here are my 2011 results so far:

                        First week of January     One hour           4.7m     12:45 minutes/mile

                        First week of February    One hour           5.0m     12:00 minutes/mile

                        First week of March        One hour           5.3m     11:20 minutes/mile

                         

                        I’m pretty disappointed that it’s taking this long to get back to the 5.7 mph I was at last September, but at least it’s good motivation to not take too much time off in the future.  Again, I’m running exclusively at MAF pace in all my runs.  I run Tuesday – Saturday for one hour and two hours on Sunday, so I’m totaling 7 hours and roughly 35 miles per week.  My hope is that by May I’m close to 6.0 miles for the hour run.  Because my pace slows over the hour, my true MAF pace is already pretty close to 10:00 for the first 3 miles and would probably be around 9 if I get to 6 mph.  I haven’t run faster than my MAF pace since late in 2009 so I’m anxious to turn on the jets and run a 5K to see the benefits of my training, but I’m going to wait until I hit 6.0 mph or close to it.

                         

                        I do admit to blowing off the warmup and warmdown.  When I start a run, I set my pace at about where I think my MAF pace is and it takes about a minute for my heart rate to plateau at MAF and when I end my run, I end my run – no beating around the bush!  It doesn’t seem to be keeping me from making progress.  Have others had different experiences with regard to the compulsory warmup/warmdowns?

                         

                        -tortoise88

                         

                        Congratulations, Tortoise ,on some awesome improvement. Once you make your goal of 10:00 miles, and begin racing 5k's, it will take a few 5k's to see the benefits, as it will take a few to kick start your anaerobic system and get it balanced out, so-to-speak. You will also most likely see a jump down into the sub 10:00 range in your MAF pace.

                         

                        The lack of WU and CD isn't hurting you at this point, so if it ain't broke, don't fix it. If you do ever run itno some trouble, it might be something to look at.

                         

                        Doing awesome! Inspiring.

                         

                        Keep going!

                         

                        --Jimmy Cool

                        tortoise88


                          @ cmon2:  Regarding my pace slowing during my runs, part of it is definitely topography:  the first half of my run is net downhill, the second half uphill.  But aside from that, my understanding is that MAF pace is expected to slow anyway from mile to mile.  For example, in a Maffetone article on his website he cites an actual MAF test result which shows a slowdown of 37 seconds per mile from mile 1 to mile 3 (the example is a walking pace, but I would suppose the same general effect would hold true for running).  Also, I remember reading somewhere that as you lose hydration, your heart rate rises – there’s some formula for it, like for each hour you run and don’t hydrate, your heart rate rises 7 bpm or something like that.  Conversely, if you’re keeping heart rate constant, your pace should get slower.  I don’t know if that’s what accounts for the natural slowdown you see in most MAF tests or if it’s something separate.  So based on all of that, I’m not concerned at all about the fact that my pace slows during a run.  Maybe I'll start carrying water with me (and drinking it) and see if that makes a difference.

                           

                          Another way to think about the warmup question:  if I were to incorporate a warmup, it would be at the expense of the same duration of training time at MAF, because I don’t want to budget additional overall training time in my schedule.  In other words, I run for an hour at MAF every day; if I warmed up for 10 minutes, then I would only have 50 minutes of truly MAF training (I know you could argue that all 10 minutes of the warmup isn’t necessarily “lost” time, but for the sake of discussion, let’s just say it’s a 10 minute tradeoff.)  Is the relative benefit of doing the warmup worth the reduction in MAF training time?  I suppose that noone really knows the answer to that definitively and that the only practical answer is “do what works for you”.  Not warming up is working now but maybe I’d be making even better progress if I warmed up/cooled down properly. 

                           

                          Other Maffetone commandments that I have blown off in keeping with my philosophy that my life should be kept as simple as possible for maximum happiness (MH):

                          1. nutrition.  I read the nutrition chapters in the Big Book and had to take several naps – not to say it was boring, just a lot of information that is hard to digest, pun intended.  I just eat whatever I want.
                          2. stretching.  I actually did try a warm up for a couple weeks mainly because I wanted to eliminate stretching per Dr. Phil’s teachings which say you don’t need to stretch as long as you warm up properly.  Perhaps I gave up too soon, but I just feel a lot better with stretched muscles and joints.  In particular, my lower back really doesn't like it when my hamstrings are tight.

                           

                          If I start to plateau, I’ll probably look first at doing the warmup and then probably pay more attention to nutrition.

                           

                          @ Jimmy:  it’s very helpful to know that I shouldn’t expect my 5K time to instantly plummet.  Intellectually, I have known that’s probably true but emotionally I’ve been convinced that I’ll immediately knock 2 minutes off the first time out.  In my races, my cardiovascular system has definitely been the weak link. I’ve never felt like my muscles were really tiring, it’s all been about catching my breath.  That has led me to be perhaps overly optimistic about my first post-MAF training race, so it’s good to have well-adjusted expectations!

                           

                          -tortoise88

                          BeeRunB


                            Tortoise,

                             

                            You could easily set a PR your first time out, especially if you improved 2+ minutes in aerobic speed. I was just thinking

                            about how the first time out feels strange, as your using an energy system you haven't touched in 12-16 weeks. 

                            Taking the information from your posts, and marrying it with the many stories of the people posting here, and

                            with conversations out of forum with other members, I've come up with a new aphorism:

                             

                            "You create your own Maffetonian reality"

                             

                            I just love this sentence that you wrote:

                             

                            "Other Maffetone commandments that I have blown off in keeping with my philosophy that my life should be kept as simple as possible for maximum happiness (MH)"

                             

                            In a way, you sum up MAF training with it in terms of stress. You have something that is working, you're happy, you aren't obsessed and priorities are set. Where's the stress in that?  

                             

                            I really believe that Dr. Phil's E=MC2 contribution to the training world is the MAF test. I think almost any endurance athlete would benefit from a monthly test, whether you run everything near LT or just do intervals every other day. As with you, there is no need for a formalized test, if you basically do a test every day. I'm convinced that the test is a treasure trove of information that can guide an athlete away from the inevitable trouble one runs into when overdoing it, or letting the energy systems get out of balance.

                             

                            "Creating your own MAffetonian reality" can be as simple as just the test. Cool

                             

                            If ain't breaking you, don't fix it. If it is, might be time to include another chapter from THe Big Book in your universe.

                            Or not.

                             

                            Looking forward to updates, Tortoise. ANd thanks for writing that sentence. It's something I really needed to read.Approve

                             

                            --Jimmy

                              yes MAF pace is supposed to slow at even HR but I'm not sure why, Maffetone never talked about the cause of that.

                               

                              I'm not entirely convinced that it's just dehydration. I never drink anything for my runs (except for the long runs in hot weather), but I do stay hydrated throughout the day. my heart rate clearly doesn't go up 7 bpm for most of my runs.

                               

                              as an example, at 180-age MAF HR (I'm healthy, blahblah), my pace doesn't quite slow at all in the first hour after the warm-up.

                              I just did a 6.2mile (10km) run at this HR (180-age, 153bpm for me, I didn't update it after my 28th birthday which was recently), I did it in 67mins incl. warmup at the start, held this HR and had no HR drift at 153bpm.

                               

                              I dunno why that is but hey it's cool by me. Maffetone just said that it meant good base endurance useful for ultra running. Smile (I asked him once about the meaning of no drift at sub-MAF HR.)

                               

                              so, my HR would have to be really high to begin with if I want to observe a 7bpm increase in one hour. for me this would be a HR/intensity past the carb/fat switch over point (where carbs become really dominant over fats).

                               

                              as for the HR where I would have this 37sec slowdown from mile 1 to mile 3, I would be starting at a HR around 165 or a bit above 165 (after warmup).

                               

                              maybe staying hydrated all day helps with this. again, I don't drink during the run but I do drink 1-2 glasses of water before I go out (~30mins before starting the run).

                               

                              it probably also helps that I don't have a lot of body mass (110-115lbs and not a high BMI either). I suspect that if you have a lot of fat or just a lot of body mass in general then you will heat up more and that will also increase the HR.

                               

                              oh I just remembered another possible reason for HR drift. the guy who helps with my training plan said it's to do with muscle fiber recruitment. the more endurance the fibers, that you recruited for the specific pace, possess, the less HR drift. HR drift happens when you need to recruit more fibers as time goes on. because of that, when the goal of the run is improving endurance, it's good to stick to HR instead of pace.

                               

                              on the other topics - I don't have an answer to your warmup question, but I think that in the first 10mins, if you managed to run some pace close to the one hour MAF pace average for you, that wouldn't be a waste of time at all. but anyway it's really up to you.

                               

                              as for nutrition...I liked his eating book (I bought ebook of that a while ago), it made a lot of sense. I will admit with some guilt that I haven't tried too hard to follow the guidelines that are in it. for me it would be too much messing around with food right now. but I don't have the carb craving thing that he talks so much about so I'm hoping I'm ok so far. if I ever get to that point I will start eating totally healthy and all that. as it is now, I don't eat much sugars except after the runs in a drink because that for me is the easiest way to replace the calories. I just don't have a big appetite.

                               

                              stretching is so individual, the only thing I would dare to say is that it's best to stick to a baseline i.e. how flexible you naturally were before you started running. just keep up that baseline and you should be fine. I myself am not flexible at all for most muscles. most flexibility is around my hips, but my lower back and hamstring is crappy with it but I never had a problem out of that.. if it ain't broken don't fix it Smile

                               

                              about 5K time, it's hard to predict what happened to it. do you know your MAF pace from your PR 5K times? that would be useful info.
                              one reason why it is hard to predict it is that when you build a base for lower HR's it doesn't necessarily have the same amount of pace improvement on your 5K times, though you should be able to keep the same fast pace for a bit longer so 5K time would be improved that way (and 10K and HM times even more so!), especially after you get used to the fast pace again.

                              and then with more speed work you'll get even better after a good base build!


                              about the disconnect you describe about cardiovascular system vs leg muscles, I always felt that...until I started logging higher than ever mileage in base build this winter. (well and another reason)
                              so, your muscles might have to get used to the faster paces first before doing 5K PR.

                              or maybe not. you will see soon Smile

                              good luck with your races!! Smile

                                yes MAF pace is supposed to slow at even HR but I'm not sure why, Maffetone never talked about the cause of that.

                                 

                                 

                                Its from cardiac drift.

                                 

                                Wiki definition: Cardiovascular drift (CVD, CVdrift) is the phenomenon where some cardiovascular responses begin a time dependent change, or "drift" after around 10 minutes of exercise in a warm or neutral environment. It is characterised by decreases in mean arterial pressure and stroke volume and a parallel increase in heart rate. It is influenced by many factors, most notably the ambient temperature, hydration and the amount of muscle tissue activated during exercise. To promote cooling, blood flow to the skin is increased, resulting in a shift in fluids from blood plasma to the skin tissue. This results in a decrease in pulmonary arterial pressure and reduced stroke volume in the heart. To maintain cardiac output at reduced pressure, the heart rate must be increased.

                                 

                                Another nice read on Cardiac Drift

                                 

                                The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

                                 

                                2014 Goals:

                                 

                                Stay healthy

                                Enjoy life