Low HR Training

Maffetone Method Support Thread (Read 3201 times)

    Quick update on my progress:

     

    Last 4 days in a row: 

    5.6 miles/1 hour/10:43 per mile

    5.5 miles/1 hour/10:55 per mile

    5.6 miles/1 hour/10:43 per mile

    5.7 miles/1 hour/10:32 per mile

     

    I'm ahead of my goal (5.7 by end of March) by a couple weeks so maybe I'll get to 6.0 mph sometime in April.  So far the most rewarding part about going so "fast" is not feeling like quite so much of a dork doing my creepy slow-motion half-jog up a slightly inclined path barely passing old ladies walking to the bus stop.  It sounds like a small thing but with this method I find you look for new ways to measure progress whenever possible.  Smile

     

    On 5K pace/MAF correlation:  I never did an MAF test until after I ran my last 5K race, but let's assume it was basically 13:00 minute miles (probably slower if you account for my significant HR drift).  My best 5K was 22:30 which is a 7:15 pace.  Maffetone's handy correlation chart shows something like a 2 minute delta between MAF and 5K pace.  So that's not very useful for me.  If I can get my MAF is down to, say 9, I would hope that I get more than a 2 minute dropoff since that would just be a 7 minute mile (where I already was).  But there's basically no predicting - it's going to be a surprise! 

     

    The other thing I had wanted to add in my original post is that I really didn't start to see progress with this method until I started running 5-6 days a week.  I hadn't seen any sort of guideline to what the minimum mileage/time/days per week was to get good results and at first I was just going maybe 4 times a week, sometimes 3.  I was on the verge of giving it up when I thought "if you're going to do it, really do it " and started going 6 days a week.  It is interesting how your perspective changes once you directly experience this - early on if I had to miss a run for whatever reason, it would be a minor relief and even a welcome break.  Now when it happens I'm vexed and pissed and out of sorts and do everything I can to try and make up for it - run an extra hour on the weekend, or run on my normal day off or whatever. 

     

    -tortoise88

     

     

     

    congrats on your progress. Smile I agree that 5.7mph feels a lot better than say 4.5mph.... running motion is a lot more normal. however let's not overstate the slowness, old ladies probably don't move faster than 3mph on flat ground and even slower on incline.... Smile I always found pleasure in passing walking people, because I could see I was moving faster than ordinary walking pace even if it felt very slow. passing people was easily possible at 4.5mph (that 4.5mph was last year for me).

     

    yes rate of improvement will depend on running frequency and volume and intensity. I did the MAF base building a while ago at 6 days per week. (the weekly rest day was thrown in just for paranoia and perhaps for mental rest, I didn't feel the need physically.)

     

    what do you mean by "directly experience this"? I'm confused about that sentence. Surprised btw, I don't care if for time constraintments I can't get the run in...hey I'll just run next day...weekly mileage will be whatever it will be... I do try to get all my planned runs done but 95% of the plan is fine. why are you pissed when you miss a day? is it that your weekly mileage would be too "low", or is it a physical feeling? just curious.

     

    those correlation charts never worked for me at all but I suspect part of it is that following the formula blindly gave me something lower intensity than intended :P (=not top of fat burning zone...burning a lot of fat and no carbs but probably not maximal fat burning) 

     

    using the formula I get MAF pace at 11:00 pace for 1 hour MAF run (but 10:45 on my best days so far!), 5K PR is 7:30 pace from last september, and I know I have better base than I did in september, though the last time I did speed work was a long time ago so 5K right now probably would not be much faster than in september but it would definitely be better than the 7:30 pace.

    (I know this for sure because later I ran 10K that was better pace than the equivalent of the 7:30paced 5K.)

     

    so anyway, you can see the differential is pretty big, about 3:30 or a bit more. if I was to take 2:00  differential then my MAF would be about 15 beats higher than the 180-age but I'm sure that it's a bit more than 2:00 anyway, so not really 15 beats higher Smile. because at +15bpm I know that carbs are already kicking in somewhat more than they should be (not because it's +15, it's just how it is).

     

    a note, that with the correlation chart you are supposed to use the pace for the first mile of your MAF test, I said 1 hour because it's the same at that HR for me as the 1st mile. so, paces still don't really work out for me.

     

    when did you do your first MAF test, I mean how much time after that 5K race and any running break between the two?

    tortoise88


      cmon2:

       

      My "directly experience this" sentence just meant to say that it's one thing to be told that you'll lose ground if you take a break and that increasing training volume will help results, but living through it just makes it hit home that not only is it true but perhaps to a degree you hadn't realized.  Like if I tell you "Cats" is great, then you know it's great as a point of fact, but if you go see it yourself, you'd be all like "Oh man, you guys have GOT to go see Cats!!".  

       

      I started MAF training at the beginning of January 2010 and my last 5K was maybe late October 2009?  Something like that. So about 2 months lag.

       

      Right after my last update post, real life hit and I had to pull 2 near all-nighters at work.  So I ended up skipping three running days in a row Wednesday thru Friday.  My Saturday run was a paltry 5.04 (albeit with the added load of a baby jogger/stroller which I hadn't used before) and then Sunday my first hour was 5.4, so I'm getting it back but it's so disheartening to lose any ground.

       

      To clarify my "pissed" comment, I was just trying to explain the shift in attitude from running being something you know you should do but don't always feel motivated to do, to running being something you have to do.  When I first started running, every time out there'd be a little motivation check in my head:  "okay, I should go running this morning, but it's really early and probably kind of cold out and maybe if I just skipped today it wouldn't make too much difference- no come on, you gotta do it, now or never, etc. etc." and if I skipped a day, I'd be on balance pleased with life.  Now, however, there is no question of motivation, there's no little negotiation between the angel and devil on either side of my head - I just go because I have to run and if something keeps me from it, I curse my misfortune and hope that I haven't done significant damage to my training progress.

       

      -tortoise88

        cmon2:

         

        My "directly experience this" sentence just meant to say that it's one thing to be told that you'll lose ground if you take a break and that increasing training volume will help results, but living through it just makes it hit home that not only is it true but perhaps to a degree you hadn't realized.  Like if I tell you "Cats" is great, then you know it's great as a point of fact, but if you go see it yourself, you'd be all like "Oh man, you guys have GOT to go see Cats!!".  

         

        I started MAF training at the beginning of January 2010 and my last 5K was maybe late October 2009?  Something like that. So about 2 months lag.

         

        Right after my last update post, real life hit and I had to pull 2 near all-nighters at work.  So I ended up skipping three running days in a row Wednesday thru Friday.  My Saturday run was a paltry 5.04 (albeit with the added load of a baby jogger/stroller which I hadn't used before) and then Sunday my first hour was 5.4, so I'm getting it back but it's so disheartening to lose any ground.

         

        To clarify my "pissed" comment, I was just trying to explain the shift in attitude from running being something you know you should do but don't always feel motivated to do, to running being something you have to do.  When I first started running, every time out there'd be a little motivation check in my head:  "okay, I should go running this morning, but it's really early and probably kind of cold out and maybe if I just skipped today it wouldn't make too much difference- no come on, you gotta do it, now or never, etc. etc." and if I skipped a day, I'd be on balance pleased with life.  Now, however, there is no question of motivation, there's no little negotiation between the angel and devil on either side of my head - I just go because I have to run and if something keeps me from it, I curse my misfortune and hope that I haven't done significant damage to my training progress.

         

        -tortoise88

         

         

        thanks for the explanations. Smile

         

        interesting, as soon as I started using the HRM for controlling my HR (not MAF or anything, as I didn't hear about any low HR methods yet..but low enough to be comfortable), I was addicted! I didn't need convincing to go out and do the run! Smile

         

        an extra rest day here or there (once in every couple  of weeks or something) will not do any damage at all. obsession is not so good either.

         

        as for losing ground, that's just how the body works. I was thinking about this topic a few days ago. I figured I just had to accept that once in a while there can be 1-2 days where your body just doesn't work as good as normal. for example due to weather change or "just because". but 1-2 days later you're back anyway, your overall fitness level is still the same, you won't lose it for no reason (unless you get really sick or something). of course assuming you keep training and no overtraining etc.

          ...

           

          I really believe that Dr. Phil's E=MC2 contribution to the training world is the MAF test. I think almost any endurance athlete would benefit from a monthly test, whether you run everything near LT or just do intervals every other day. As with you, there is no need for a formalized test, if you basically do a test every day. I'm convinced that the test is a treasure trove of information that can guide an athlete away from the inevitable trouble one runs into when overdoing it, or letting the energy systems get out of balance.

           

          ...

           

           

          It has taken me a while, but I am arriving at the same conclusion.

           

          I am currently a lab rat for a research study at a local university.  The study is titled “The Effects of an Herbal Supplement on Human Cycling Performance, Muscle Function, and Lactate Dynamics”.

           

          So, I have become very interested in "Lactate Dynamics" and spent a considerable amount of time educating myself on the subject.  I found some very interesting content on a website that explores this in some detail.  They were demonstrating the need to find the proper balance between the aerobic and anaerobic energy systems.  They were making a case for lactate testing.

           

          I believe that the MAF test is a reliable and inexpensive alternative to lactate testing for endurance athletes.  And the Maffetone Method of training is an effective way to achieve and maintain this balance between the energy systems.

           

          I am looking forward to ramping up my MAF running time after I am finished with the study.

          BeeRunB


            MAF Test today

             

            Heading in the right direction. Much better than last year at the same time.

            Hot one.

             

            --Jimmy

            runnerclay


            Consistently Slow

              Tens always make me smile.

              Run until the trail runs out.

               SCHEDULE 2016--

               The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

              unsolicited chatter

              http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

              tortoise88


                Some updates on my last 6 weeks of training:

                 

                My last update was on 3/14 when I hit a string of ~5.6 mph runs (i.e. 5.6 miles for a one hour run) which was a minor success story for me. Subsequently, after a couple weeks of treading water with interruptions and just not making much apparent progress, I popped out a 5.85 and was on top of the world (my goal is 6.0 which is equivalent to 10 minute miles) – until the next two days when I ran mere 5.3’s.  I’ve had bad days, but never two in a row and usually I can pin it on something i.e. not getting much sleep, being sick, poor dietary choices, etc. but this time I couldn’t find anything to blame it on so I began to suspect overtraining since I really haven’t taken any breaks in 3 months. 

                 

                Separate but related, around the same time (starting maybe a week or so prior), I was starting to have episodes during my runs of accelerated heart rate where it would just jump into a different mode and start beating anywhere from 10 to 30 beats per minute faster than what it should.  Sometimes it goes away almost immediately, other times it sort of hangs around for a few minutes.  I’ve experienced that and similar things (skipping beats) here and there in the past, even getting it checked out by a doctor (nothing to worry about but I was prescribed sugar pills for my hypochondria), in fact once I started the LHR training last year I actually noticed that kind of thing going away, so I didn’t know what was going on with this new, persistent presence (it was happening at least once every training run) but I figured this could be either caused by or at least exacerbated by overtraining as well so I decided to take a week off.  I ended up taking 9 days off, starting up again last Wednesday.  Since then, it hasn’t gone away completely but is noticeably reduced.

                 

                Then this week I realized that, for no particular reason other than craving and free will, I had been ingesting a lot more caffeine over the last few weeks, the primary culprit being a newly formed afternoon Mountain Dew habit borne out of a very hectic work environment.  So starting this week I am going cold turkey on caffeine intake (hello Sprite, goodbye Reese’s peanut butter eggs) and in my four runs this week I’ve only had two bouts of the heart racing.  I do have a physical scheduled soon just to be safe and get it checked out, but hopefully I’ll see things go back to normal completely with a few more days of no caffeine.

                 

                As far as my progress, the last few days I’ve continued to hover around 5.5/5.6 mph, but this morning, I set a new personal best of 5.9 mph (!):  it was a cool morning (not warm/muggy as it’s been recently), I decided not to take my dog with me (usually he runs pretty well but a few times per run will come up with a new way to slow me down), and I had a big hearty meal last night that didn’t feel like it was still sitting in my stomach this morning:  and it all led to me feeling great during the run.

                 

                I have two more weeks before my first 5K.  My goal is to get to 6.0 mph for my hour training run before starting to race, but even if I don’t hit it I figure 5.9 is close enough.  The best part about this morning’s run is that my pace didn’t drop as much as it normally does over the course of the run, so not only did I start out faster (first mile was 9:10), I kept my pace better. 

                 

                -tortoise88

                  Two MAF Tests. 

                   

                  Last night:  9:45 (HR=132)

                  Today:         10:25 (HR=133.5)

                   

                  One last night, and another this morning on the same exact course.  Each was 2 miles long.

                   

                  After last nights really good MAF test, I knew it was probably an anomoly.  So, today, I did another one on the exact same coarse, the exact same warmup and they were both two miles.  The temperature and humidity was also about the same.  The only difference was that todays was in the sun and last night it was cloudy and rainy.  So, the sun beating down was a factor, but not that much of a factor.

                   

                  I think the biggest factor was the suppressed HR phenomenon that I sometimes experience.  Two nights ago, I had one of my hardest workouts of the year.  So, last night, I could see that my HR was a bit low for the pace.  I could see that my HR was dropping a lot at the slightest decrease in speed.  But, I did the test anyway.  This was a recovery run.

                   

                  Today, I still felt like I was recovering, so I did another MAF test because that is a good recovery HR to run at.  Today, my legs felt less energy and I was definitely in the more normal range for HR vs pace.  Yesterday, I felt really good.  Funny how that works.  Sometimes after a hard workout, you feel the affects two days later more than just the day after.

                   

                  I just thought this was a good example of how easy it is for a MAF test result to be affected by various things.

                    tortoise88, good luck for the 5K race, I will be really curious how it relates to your MAF pace. Smile

                     

                    run48, if you felt good at the 9:45 at low HR, then I think it may have been supercompensation from the hard workout, what I don't understand is why it would go away so fast.

                    another idea: is your HR usually higher in the morning and lower in the evening? for some people it is like that. (as for myself I never noticed such a big difference)

                    BeeRunB


                      Two MAF Tests. 

                       

                      Last night:  9:45 (HR=132)

                      Today:         10:25 (HR=133.5)

                       

                      One last night, and another this morning on the same exact course.  Each was 2 miles long.

                       

                      After last nights really good MAF test, I knew it was probably an anomoly.  So, today, I did another one on the exact same coarse, the exact same warmup and they were both two miles.  The temperature and humidity was also about the same.  The only difference was that todays was in the sun and last night it was cloudy and rainy.  So, the sun beating down was a factor, but not that much of a factor.

                       

                      I think the biggest factor was the suppressed HR phenomenon that I sometimes experience.  Two nights ago, I had one of my hardest workouts of the year.  So, last night, I could see that my HR was a bit low for the pace.  I could see that my HR was dropping a lot at the slightest decrease in speed.  But, I did the test anyway.  This was a recovery run.

                       

                      Today, I still felt like I was recovering, so I did another MAF test because that is a good recovery HR to run at.  Today, my legs felt less energy and I was definitely in the more normal range for HR vs pace.  Yesterday, I felt really good.  Funny how that works.  Sometimes after a hard workout, you feel the affects two days later more than just the day after.

                       

                      I just thought this was a good example of how easy it is for a MAF test result to be affected by various things.

                       

                      Possible other factors:

                       

                      --HR can vary for some people AM vs. PM. They will have higher resting HR's in the morning, and lower one's in the evening. Or vice versa.

                      Do you take your RHR before each run?

                       

                      --Not always the case, but you can be more dehydrated in the morning, and also might be other metabolic differences.

                       

                      --if you do a run in the PM the night before, and one in the morning the next day, it's like doing a double.

                       

                      --if your MAF is incorrect and higher than what it should be, then essentially you are anaerobic for three workouts in a row if you are running at what you think is your MAF. This can be stressful. I find it to be. But then again, I find back-to-back-to-back viewings of Oprah Season 25: Behind The Scenes so stressful that my wife has to hide the potato chips (so I don't binge to relieve said stress).

                       

                      --the royal wedding was taking place this morning, and well, that just raises the HR of the entire planet now doesn't it? Especially if you got a glimpse of Kate's dress before you ran.

                       

                      Sun is a factor, but so is rain and high humidity. Normally, running in the thick air of rain slows you down.

                      How did the worst test of the two compare to your last test?

                       

                      This "suppressed heart rate" thing going on for you is interesting. I saw something like it in the early days when I tried running on the day after a 3-4 hour long run--which I did much harder way back then. I would see this amazing improvement in pace at the same HR the next day. But it wouldn't last. I don't remember why the thought occurred to me that it was actually a form of exhaustion, or in essence, a trauma from which the body was overcompensating in some way, but the thought did occur to me. Mainly, because the "improvement" didn't stick. That's when I religiously started to take the day off after the longest run of the week. If you keep your eye out on the main board, sometimes you will see someone report how they ran a great race or run on the day after a 20+ miler. Interesting stuff.

                       

                      --Jimmy

                       

                      p.s. I haven't seen it on days after LT runs, or medium long runs (1-2 hours). Occasionally I will have an anomalous recovery run that is much faster than the current average. It's more often that I see a slowing down in terms of anomalous paces vs. the current average.

                        This "suppressed heart rate" thing going on for you is interesting. I saw something like it in the early days when I tried running on the day after a 3-4 hour long run--which I did much harder way back then. I would see this amazing improvement in pace at the same HR the next day. But it wouldn't last. I don't remember why the thought occurred to me that it was actually a form of exhaustion, or in essence, a trauma from which the body was overcompensating in some way, but the thought did occur to me. Mainly, because the "improvement" didn't stick. That's when I religiously started to take the day off after the longest run of the week.

                         

                        So, after running the two MAF tests on consecutive days, I decided to take a rest day.  Then yesterday, I decided to try to go for a long run.  I was determined to keep HR low and make it through the long run.

                         

                        When I started the long run, I could feel that my legs did not have much bounce, but if I kept to a certain pace, they felt like they could just keep going.  But, it was very difficult to increase speed at all.  So, I think I was experiencing the suppressed HR thing again.  I ended up doing my longest run of the year:

                         

                        8.8 miles, AvgHR=119, AvePace=11:20

                         

                        So, again, I had a run where my HR was low for the pace.  Once in a while, I surged a little and watched HR climb to about 126, and then I would slow down, and it would plummet back to about 118.  Usually if you increase speed and increase HR to a new steady state level, when you slow down, there is a lag before the HR responds by going down.  But, when I have this suppressed HR thing going, it does not lag, but drops immediately to the new level.

                         

                        Another symptom I get when I have this suppressed HR thing going is the following.  When I complete a run, I always walk for two minutes and monitor my HR.  The HR usually settles to about 105 bpm after two minutes.  When the HR seems suppressed it settles below 100.  Yesterday it settled to 94. 

                         

                        So, I know my body and I know that when I have this symptom, I am in recovery mode.  I once read that it may have something to do with being glycogen depleted.  So, it must seem silly that I went for a long run in this state?  Well, the interesting thing is that if I keep the HR low enough, I feel OK and it feels easy.  But, trying to increase the pace is very difficult.  Perhaps I am glycogen depleted, but keeping my HR low enough has me relying much more heavily on fat burning and thus it feels easy.  But, once I increase speed, there is no extra energy for that?

                         

                        It is interesting that you do not experience this kind of thing unless you have gone for a 4 hour long run or something.  I just think that some people recover better than others.  It does not take much to bring me to this state.  A few days of easy running or rest always makes it go away.

                         

                        Added:  I have checked my RHR, but I do not check it that often.  I find it very variable, so I do not track it much.  I have not seen anything unusual in terms of RHR when I have been doing too much or that I need more recovery. 

                        BeeRunB


                          MAF test today

                          Still heading in the right direction. Eclipsed 4 miles for 45:00 for the first time in awhile.

                          About a minute better than last year at the same time and weight.

                           

                          --Jimmy

                          tortoise88



                            A follow-up on declining MAF pace over the course of a run:  I had mentioned earlier in this thread that on my normal training route my pace slows by ~2 min/mile largely due to change in elevation.  Two weekends ago I was in central Michigan and ran twice while there on very flat terrain.  I found that my pace did not slow by nearly as much, as expected.  In my runs leading up to that weekend, I was doing roughly 9:00-9:30 for the first mile, which is net downhill although there are ups and downs and between 11-11:30 for the last uphill mile.  On the flat course, my first mile was 9:45, last one somewhere in the mid-high 10’s.


                            I also assumed that on the flat terrain, my average speed would improve over what it is on my normal hilly course.  But my two flat runs were 5.77 miles and 5.84 miles: no obvious improvement over what I had been running at home (between 5.7 and 5.9 in recent days).  Probably not enough data to form a conclusion, but I was surprised.

                             

                            This morning my first mile was 8:30 (!) and I ran 5.95 miles total, not quite the holy grail 6.0 I’ve been shooting for but pretty close – I almost thought I could sprint the last .05 miles fast enough to finish before my HRM registered the change (I know that’s cheating).  So, the big race is this weekend:  I’m going to do my normal hour run tomorrow, then run 30 minutes on Th/Fri, then maybe just a mile or two on Saturday in preparation for the 5K Sunday.  What’s the world record just in case I’m doing really well and am within reach in the last half mile?  Smile


                              A follow-up on declining MAF pace over the course of a run:  I had mentioned earlier in this thread that on my normal training route my pace slows by ~2 min/mile largely due to change in elevation.  Two weekends ago I was in central Michigan and ran twice while there on very flat terrain.  I found that my pace did not slow by nearly as much, as expected.  In my runs leading up to that weekend, I was doing roughly 9:00-9:30 for the first mile, which is net downhill although there are ups and downs and between 11-11:30 for the last uphill mile.  On the flat course, my first mile was 9:45, last one somewhere in the mid-high 10’s.


                              I also assumed that on the flat terrain, my average speed would improve over what it is on my normal hilly course.  But my two flat runs were 5.77 miles and 5.84 miles: no obvious improvement over what I had been running at home (between 5.7 and 5.9 in recent days).  Probably not enough data to form a conclusion, but I was surprised.

                               

                              This morning my first mile was 8:30 (!) and I ran 5.95 miles total, not quite the holy grail 6.0 I’ve been shooting for but pretty close – I almost thought I could sprint the last .05 miles fast enough to finish before my HRM registered the change (I know that’s cheating).  So, the big race is this weekend:  I’m going to do my normal hour run tomorrow, then run 30 minutes on Th/Fri, then maybe just a mile or two on Saturday in preparation for the 5K Sunday.  What’s the world record just in case I’m doing really well and am within reach in the last half mile?  Smile

                               

                               

                              hey, that sounds cool!

                               

                              if the terrain is not terribly hilly, just little rolling hills then I don't think that affects avg pace too much.

                               

                              as for the race, good luck! Smile

                               

                              WR is 12-something minutes for 5K Smile (for men)

                              tortoise88


                                Okay I just looked it up since one person's "hilly" might be another person's "not very hilly":  there are basically three primary drops on my normal running route (and of course on the way back, three inclines):

                                 

                                1.  60 feet over 0.4 miles

                                2.  85 feet over 0.5 miles

                                3.  60 feet over 0.5 miles

                                 

                                Net elevation change of 160 feet from beginning of run to halfway point (again, route is basically a straight line from point A to B, then back).  So, these aren't killer hills or anything, but it took me several months of training to get to the point where I didn't have to walk them at MAF!

                                 

                                -tortoise88