Low HR Training

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How I spent my summer vacation (Read 465 times)

lowgear1


Max McMaffelow Esq.

    Not a bad summer, overall. Let me get right to it. In an unexpected series of events, I have become increasingly aware of the need to adjust my training quite dramatically. It all started with a routine visit to my general physician, or more accurately a substitute of his. I insisted that the heart murmur he was hearing was of long standing, and of no particular concern to my regular doctor, who also happens to be a heart specialist. Still expressing concern he sent me for further testing. Both an EKG and Echocardiogram were scheduled and administered. The doctor who chairs the Cardiology School at Creighton University reviewed the test results and informed me of the findings. The results suggested evidence of Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy with 70-75% left ventricular function. I'm presenting this with great hesitation, and certainly not to elicit sympathy or anything of the kind, but foremost as an example to others. I was quite surprised, to say the least, and would not have been aware of my condition, otherwise. The post test consultation had me largely answering a battery of questions, and the doc with clipboard, taking copious notes. I do recall babbling apologetically about doing LHR training of 25-30 miles per week and his attention to this. He mostly sat quietly smiling ($ new patient $?) as I pleaded my case. He didn't rule out or even suggest cutting back on running, which was good. There was the expected suggestion of further tests such as treadmill stress testing and 24 hr heart monitoring, etc ($$). Being a veteran, I implied that if I pursue further testing I would do so thru the VA. That's where it stands at this point. Don't misunderstand, it was the best money i've ever spent. Now, the silver lining. I've adjusted my maf heartrate to reflect my present condition and believe that as a result I am now in the appropriate zone for improvement. Wish i'd been there from the get go. I'm just entering my 4th week of this new heartrate and it looks promising. Specifically instead of 125 maf, it is now 115. (a 10 bpm hickie). Makes a huge percieved effort difference, and if what I suspect is happening aerobically, I should be a happy camper. Yes, one can still "run" in this zone. In fact, i've not given up too much pace. Clearly, the long range prognosis limits me, but we all have limits. I'm certain i'll continue enjoying the journey and improve accordingly. Incidentally, just this morning I did a 9 miler with an average heartrate of 109. It fit the "finish your run as though you could do the same distance again" description. Although slow, seems i've got endurance to burn. Perusing a post by Slowgino, in the other forum, really hit home for me: I got a brief look at the results from between 50 and 100 VO2 tests of runners (and some were cyclists). I don't have the complete RQ (RER) vs HR for each, but I do have the "Aerobic Threshold" (AeT) which has some relationship to Maffetone's "deflection point" for the MAF. What's interesting is the variability. The AeT values for the 12 people aged 44 to 48 range from 94 to 138. Four are between 110 and 120, four in the 120s, etc... The bottom line is that a number of these folks could not depend on the "180 formula" to tell them where their training HR should be. I must admit that I'm a skeptic when it comes to all the formulas. You can find some true believers over on the user group. Check it out. P.S. the 180 formula doesn't work for me... I'm outside the age parameters anyway... I just use my VO2 test results, and that works great for maximum training of the fat metabolism. Gino In conclusion, while it is extremely unlikely that a revelation such as mine would come to play in the vast, vast majority of runners not improving aerobically, it illustrates a more subtle phenomenon. I had little idea that I was running at an inappropriate maf number until my diagnosis, yet it seems quite obvious now. There are so many facets to this training such as diet, stress, training load, on and on. It seems vitally important that in order to progress, you need to make certain you optimize each and every part, and you should continuously evaluate/compare. lg
    ♪ ♫ Hey, hey, we're Maf Monkees And people say we monkey around. ♪ ♫ (The Monkees)
    Give me 12:59 in '09, please. I deserve it! (Maf of course)..No more teens! No more teens! (ME! ME! ME!)
    ♪ ♫ I Thank The Lord For The Night Time...And I Thank The Lord For You ♪ ♫ (Neil Diamond)
    Shiksa


      I've got a wiggly baby in my lap which requires me to type one-handed, but I wanted to let you know that I read the whole thing and I am glad you are ok. What you wrote makes a lot of sense about MAF hr. This winter, I am going to adjust mine again too.

      Stacy
      I make no apologies for my liberal use of smiley icons. http://www.BlakeHillHouse.com

        I have missed your posts and am glad you have returned! I'm just reading along until after my October 5th race. A

        Recalculating...

         

        lowgear1


        Max McMaffelow Esq.

          I've got a wiggly baby in my lap which requires me to type one-handed, but I wanted to let you know that I read the whole thing and I am glad you are ok. What you wrote makes a lot of sense about MAF hr. This winter, I am going to adjust mine again too.
          Thanks Shiksa, You seem to be doing quite nicely. That seems like a good approach, tweaking your maf rate and mixing in some variations along the way. You'll likely need no major adjustments (certainly not to the extent that i'm making). Though i'm not fond of the terminolgy, i've probably been, until recently "The poster boy of junk miles". Yeah, it's disconcerting to find out that despite running at what you swear is maf, you're actually 10 bpm over. I never knew, perception wise, yet plateauing and regression should have been clues. I'm totally re-energized now, I think! Ordinarily, finding the appropriate maf heartrate shouldn't be too difficult. The majority of runners between, say 30 and 50 years old, fall pretty neatly within the 180 minus age computation, but mix in a little variance in health and age and suddenly the wheels start to come off. I've found it especially vexing at my age because the proper rate lies within a smaller spectrum, wherein every bpm becomes more critical. Toss in the usual modifiers like health issues, medications, running experience, an assumed +5 just for being over a certain age, etc and it's no longer "one size fits all" In hindsight, I should have paid for the proper lab work and thus been informed of my aerobic and lactate thresholds. I've discovered recently that due to a cardio condition i'm a pretty severe anomaly. My casual calculation of maf was way off, even though by my perceived level of exertion seemed reasonable, (in denial?) Basebuilding from scratch, now, at the correct heartrates seems to be doing the trick. I want to reiterate that i'm an anomaly and most folks can likely get by with less precision. A complete lab evaluation, however, would obviously be the gold standard if you suspect unusual circumstances. Geez, I need to give it a rest, lest I get too preachy. lg
          ♪ ♫ Hey, hey, we're Maf Monkees And people say we monkey around. ♪ ♫ (The Monkees)
          Give me 12:59 in '09, please. I deserve it! (Maf of course)..No more teens! No more teens! (ME! ME! ME!)
          ♪ ♫ I Thank The Lord For The Night Time...And I Thank The Lord For You ♪ ♫ (Neil Diamond)
          lowgear1


          Max McMaffelow Esq.

            I have missed your posts and am glad you have returned! I'm just reading along until after my October 5th race. A
            Thanks Ayola, I was curious as to how you were coming along, also. I knew you had the half marathon coming up. Hope your training is going well. I kind of go off the radar from time to time, but seldom do I not read the posts. I'm almost certain that i'll postpone my Oct. 18th half and aim for a spring race. It seems like such an awesome race though, and i'm really, really wishing I could do it, but want to be a little better prepared. lg
            ♪ ♫ Hey, hey, we're Maf Monkees And people say we monkey around. ♪ ♫ (The Monkees)
            Give me 12:59 in '09, please. I deserve it! (Maf of course)..No more teens! No more teens! (ME! ME! ME!)
            ♪ ♫ I Thank The Lord For The Night Time...And I Thank The Lord For You ♪ ♫ (Neil Diamond)


            run-easy-race-hard

              Wow, I'm not even sure what that means, but it's great that you're not discouraged from running! And indeed it's clear how it puts you in the category where you should targeting lower. I'm beginning to wonder if that's the case for me as well! In fact, I generally target much lower nowadays anyway because I see more benefits that way. Thank you for sharing - you've provided valuable information. I'm glad you're on a path of learning about what's going on and that it's no longer a hidden secret that can bite you later unexpectedly.
              lowgear1


              Max McMaffelow Esq.

                Wow, I'm not even sure what that means, but it's great that you're not discouraged from running! And indeed it's clear how it puts you in the category where you should targeting lower. I'm beginning to wonder if that's the case for me as well! In fact, I generally target much lower nowadays anyway because I see more benefits that way. Thank you for sharing - you've provided valuable information. I'm glad you're on a path of learning about what's going on and that it's no longer a hidden secret that can bite you later unexpectedly.
                Thanks Jesse, Yeah, these type of events can really get a person focused. When I first read the post of your A-fib episode, I was absolutely dumbfounded. With your exceptional fitness level, it seemed utterly unthinkable. I trust that you have rebounded fully without incident, and hope you are doing well. I dove into the medical literature to get a feel for what A-fib entailed. Am I right in assuming that it is mostly innocous and highly treatable? Hope so. As to my condition, there is a wide range of outcomes. Some people can live nearly normal lives, while others may be prone to develop a number of complications, but most can be treated effectively. Again, I dove into the literature. What perplexed me most was the fact that HCM is almost always congenital, yet I may be the rare exception. It seems i've had an innocous heart murmur for a long time, but it never provoked further screening, so it's not cunclusive one way or the other in that regard. I'm pretty certain that my continued running can only be therapeutic, and my cardiologist didn't offer any suggestion to curtail it, so i'm taking it as tacit approval. (probably doesn't want to risk a law suit by advising it, and something going awry) The upshot to all this is like you said..It has enlightened me as to where my proper zones are, and taken away some of the guesswork. Your stickys are spot-on, but it's hard to deduct 10 bpm for the medical condition until the diagnosis is made. It's almost a relief in that respect, now that I know, and can adjust. My nine miler today was just what the doctor ordered, well, in a manner of speaking, that is! I seem to know what a decent maf run feels like now. lg
                ♪ ♫ Hey, hey, we're Maf Monkees And people say we monkey around. ♪ ♫ (The Monkees)
                Give me 12:59 in '09, please. I deserve it! (Maf of course)..No more teens! No more teens! (ME! ME! ME!)
                ♪ ♫ I Thank The Lord For The Night Time...And I Thank The Lord For You ♪ ♫ (Neil Diamond)
                  ... Both an EKG and Echocardiogram were scheduled and administered. The doctor who chairs the Cardiology School at Creighton University reviewed the test results and informed me of the findings. The results suggested evidence of Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy with 70-75% left ventricular function. ...There was the expected suggestion of further tests such as treadmill stress testing and ... lg
                  It's good to hear that you seem to be doing ok and can still keep up with the training (albeit a little modified wrt HR.) Just a couple comments, an FYI and an IMHO... FYI: A couple years ago I ran across a very interesting paper (online) titled "ECG Findings in Active Patients". I can't find it anymore - it's probably restricted to physicians or members of some medical organizations. Anyway it was very interesting to see all the conditions which are often indicators of heart problems/disease which occur in athletes or people who are very active aerobically. In fact, I have had one of those conditions for over 30 years, and one or two others might crop up from time to time. Each time my physician has noticed something new, she has sent me for tests (stress treadmill test twice, echocardiogram once.) The bottom line is that these things which show up as "abnormal" on an ordinary EKG are "normal for me". When the cardiologist had a consultation with me after the last stress treadmill test and I asked him about these things he just said "That's normal for you." He was in there watching the monitors for a few minutes when they had me on the highest level their stress test went to. Now, about that paper I referred to above: Eccentric Left Ventricular Hypertrophy (I emphasize the "eccentric" here) is sometimes seen as a consequence of runner's training, and usually is not an indication of a problem. The key is that if the hypertrophy is eccentric it is more likely to be due to the athletic training, if it is not - that's likely an indication of an underlying problem. Disclaimer - I am not a physician, this stuff needs to be interpreted by doctors, hopefully by those who are used to seeing the hearts of trained athletes. Most cardiologists these days are probably pretty good at this, but years ago one doctor pulled a world-class German runner (10000m, 5000m) out of their national team and told him he had serious heart disease and had to be hospitalized immediately. Luckily, they found a doctor who had treated athletes... the first guy just had never listened to the heart of a highly trained distance runner. IMHO: A treadmill stress test is definitely important. And they've got to have someone knowledgeable watching it as you're going through it, especially at the top end you get to. Of course, a good VO2 test probably will give the best information about where to put a LHR training HR. The calorie-burning graphs (fat, carbs, total - you just need 2 of the three to get the other) can look quite different for different individuals. If you have RQ vs HR (i.e. RER vs HR) that's good, if not it can be calculated from the calorie-burning graphs. Good luck with the training, and take it easy - Gino


                  run-easy-race-hard

                    It's interesting you mention that, Gino - reminds me of my recent visit to the cardiologist. When I told the nurse my resting heart rate at peak fitness is about 38, she adamantly told me how that's a very strong indication of a problem. I basically chuckled. I told the cardio what she had said (he happens to be a triathlete) and he just laughed.
                    lowgear1


                    Max McMaffelow Esq.

                      Hey Gino, Great to hear from you, and great advice/commentary as i've come to expect. I got the biggest kick out of your reply to Shiksa the other day regarding her pace computation dilemma (.5 min at 7 min/mile and 2 min at 12 min/mile, etc.) Superb job!! Yeah, the diagnosis, analysis and treatment of some of these conditions is far from an exact science at times. I came across similar findings such as you alluded to regarding runners and LVH, etc. I've discovered some dedicated HCM forums which are quite interesting and informative, also. I feel pretty certain that my particular situation is pretty manageable overall. Just the last couple of days i've reviewed most of the pages in the General Running Forum. Was that ever an eye opener! There are some interesting folks posting there. Love how LHR training pops up for discussion quite often, and the various attitudes brought forth. You're an absolute saint in you're handling of these. Always a gentleman. What's that expression.."You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink?" Gets a little wild at times but always entertaining. I want to sincerely thank you for your response. You've offered some very helpful information, and i'm glad it tends to confirm some of my findings, and ideas. I'm quite confident that I can make the best of it, playing the hand i'm dealt, and don't anticipate any major obstacles. If so, I may opt for the "alcohol ablation" treatment. (you may be aware of the method) At first I thought they were pulling my leg, but it is a legitimate method of treatment, involving injection of alcohol into the thickened muscle wall of the ventricle which in turn causes changes to increase ventricular volume. A very promising method i'm told. But for now i'll stick with my maf program, I reckon. Thanks, Gino lg
                      ♪ ♫ Hey, hey, we're Maf Monkees And people say we monkey around. ♪ ♫ (The Monkees)
                      Give me 12:59 in '09, please. I deserve it! (Maf of course)..No more teens! No more teens! (ME! ME! ME!)
                      ♪ ♫ I Thank The Lord For The Night Time...And I Thank The Lord For You ♪ ♫ (Neil Diamond)
                      BeeRunB


                        Hey Paul, Don't let it define you or your life, just keep going. Eat well, keep moving, forgive the past (never existed, doesn't exist, and never will exist), and when it is time to die, make sure you do it in a race with your running shorts creeping up your ass, and not in some bed with tubes up your nose. --Jimmy
                        lowgear1


                        Max McMaffelow Esq.

                          Hey Paul, Don't let it define you or your life, just keep going. Eat well, keep moving, forgive the past (never existed, doesn't exist, and never will exist), and when it is time to die, make sure you do it in a race with your running shorts creeping up your ass, and not in some bed with tubes up your nose. --Jimmy
                          Thanks Jimmy, Wonderful words to live by! My sentiments, exactly. Going out whilst doing something you love has my vote, for sure. You always bring a smile to my face; Thanks for expressing it so beautifully. lg
                          ♪ ♫ Hey, hey, we're Maf Monkees And people say we monkey around. ♪ ♫ (The Monkees)
                          Give me 12:59 in '09, please. I deserve it! (Maf of course)..No more teens! No more teens! (ME! ME! ME!)
                          ♪ ♫ I Thank The Lord For The Night Time...And I Thank The Lord For You ♪ ♫ (Neil Diamond)
                            You folks are awesome. Low gear, Not alot of MAFfing happening lately, but I will shortly be drinking the water again. Enjoy yourselves! A

                            Recalculating...

                             

                            wanderingoutlaw


                              lowgear, I wondered where you had disappeared to. Glad to see you back. Hope your new lower MAF number works its wonders. Hope your Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy doesn't cause any difficulties.

                              John

                              lowgear1


                              Max McMaffelow Esq.

                                lowgear, I wondered where you had disappeared to. Glad to see you back. Hope your new lower MAF number works its wonders. Hope your Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy doesn't cause any difficulties.
                                Thanks Outlaw, I do feel confident that I can make some progress with the heartrate adjustment. Even though I was enjoying running prior, it is now so much more comfortable and satisfying. Like it should be. It kept gnawing at me why I was making just meager pace gain, while everyone else seemed to be advancing at a faster rate. I guess it's similar to a child who, although bright, may have a vision problem that isn't recognized, or perhaps dyslexia and therefore struggles. Awareness of the situation is the first step towards healing. I feel fortunate in that regard and seem to be on the mend. lg
                                ♪ ♫ Hey, hey, we're Maf Monkees And people say we monkey around. ♪ ♫ (The Monkees)
                                Give me 12:59 in '09, please. I deserve it! (Maf of course)..No more teens! No more teens! (ME! ME! ME!)
                                ♪ ♫ I Thank The Lord For The Night Time...And I Thank The Lord For You ♪ ♫ (Neil Diamond)
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