Low HR Training

12

In search of a HM training plan with HR zones (Read 838 times)

    Hi everyone. I've been MIA for a while - had some stuff going on in the home life and haven't had time to log on, or even run much for that matter.

    I was brand new to this MAF stuff a few weeks ago and I honestly wanted to stick with it, but I just don't think I can.  I know I didnt give it enough time, or effort for that matter but I can't come to terms with the fact that I shouldn't go over MAF during any run.

     

    On the bright side though, starting this endeavor has helped me realize that for 4 years Ive been running too fast for myself.  I never dreamed I could run slower than a 14mm, but I know now that I can and sometimes should.  While I was out of commission for approx 6 weeks, I got extremely lazy - ate what I wanted to, drank a lot of beer, didnt run alot and basically tried to enjoy my summer "vacation" from work.

     

    But now I'm back, with a new outlook.  I recently purchased Joe Friel's "Total Heart Rate Training" because it seemed to break things down nicely for me and I was suddenly able to understand why I couldn't ever progress longer than 4 or 5 mile runs over the course of 4 years.  So I poured over all the information and laid out a new plan for me........

     

    I previously found my MAF to be 150 following the equation.  But I wound up walking so much of the time to stay at this heart rate, I just couldn't come to grips that I was getting an adequate workout.   So yesterday I found my LT based on Friel's instructions.  I found it to be 173bpm and had a great run while finding this info out.  Based on that LT, I laid out my HR zones, following the 1-5c zone method.  I also got co-erced by a friend into attempting to train for the Philly HM that will be taking place on Nov 20th this year.  I looked at her training plan and I'm relatively sure I can probably stick to it.  My only problem is that the plan only lays out what distance to run on what days - it doesnt give too much insight on what speeds or more importantly, what HR zones to run those distances at.  I know I need to do some intervals and speedwork, but I'm clueless as to how to approach these.  Ive scoured a couple of websites already looking for this info, but I haven't found anything that satisfies what I want.  I'm hoping one of you might be able to point me in the right direction.

     

    Here's a look at the training schedule I was supplied with (it came from a female Iron-man athlete who's been professionally trained for years)

     

    wk      Mon      Tues      Wed      Thurs      Fri             Sat              Sun                  Total

    1         rest        2            rest         2           xt/rest          2.5         rest/slide               6.5

    2         rest        2.5         rest         2.5       xt/rest          3             rest/slide              7

    3         rest        2.5         rest         2.5        xt/rest          3             rest/slide             7

    4         rest       2.5          rest         3           xt/r               4                 r/s                      9.5

    5         rest       3             xt             3            xt/r              4.5              r/s                      10.5

    6         rest       3             xt            3.5         xt/r               5.0              r/s                      11.5

    7         rest       3             xt            3.5         xt/r               5.5              r/s                      12

    8         rest       3             xt            4.0         xt/r                6.0              r/s                      13

    9         rest      3speed  xt            4 ARP    xt/r                8                 r/s                      15

    10       rest      3speed  xt           4ARP      xt/r                9                 r/s                      16

    11       rest      3speed  xt           5arp        xt/r                7                 r/s                      15

    12       rest      3speed   xt           6arp       xt/r               10               r/s                      19

    13       rest      3speed   xt          6arp        xt/r               8                 r/s                      17

    14      rest       4x 1mile  xt          5arp        xt/r              12               r/s                       21

                             @5k pace

    15      rest       2.5speed  xt       3arp        xt/r               8                 r/s                       13.5

    16      rest        2              rest     20mins  xt/r             20mins      RACE

     

    I know that all the long runs should be done at Zone 2 - what  you guys would call MAF'ing.  But I'm confused about the rest.  (Of course I will be asking the person who sent this to me) I just wanted to know if there was another HR training program for a HM out there somewhere I could consult to as well

     

    Thanks for any help, sorry for the long post - I have a tendency to do that  Smile


    Race Less Train More

      Forget the speedwork.your mileage is to low for speed.Go to team Oregon pace wizard for HR. Your goal should be to finish.

      Run until the trail runs out.

      2013***1500 miles

      50 miler

       

       

      unsolicited chatter

      http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

        ok I'll check it out, thanks.  I know real speedwork wasnt in my future, but I thought maybe just going into the next HR zone for a few intervals would be ok during those runs.

          Its not giving me what I think is very accurate info probably because I dont have a recent race time.  I think its assuming your race time would be run at maxHR and thats what it bases the rest of the data with. Even if I put in my most recent time just for 2miles, run at LT pace, its telling me that this would equal maxHR which it clearly doesnt


          Race Less Train More

            Its not giving me what I think is very accurate info probably because I dont have a recent race time.  I think its assuming your race time would be run at maxHR and thats what it bases the rest of the data with. Even if I put in my most recent time just for 2miles, run at LT pace, its telling me that this would equal maxHR which it clearly doesnt

             
            Wasatch Speedgoat

            posted: 5/18/2007 at 2:46 PM

            There are many ways to find your max HR....one is to go run a 5K race, then sprint the last half mile, look at your HRM and add 5. This is as close as you will get. Here is one that was given to me by a cycling coach/pro-triathlete/Olympic cyclist... -------------------------------------------------------- This test should be performed after a recovery day or day off to ensure the athlete is ready to put forth an honest and maximal effort. Warm up for 10 minutes. Then run strong and aerobically for another 10-20 minutes. Then jog easy for several minutes at 60-70%. Then complete 2 sets of: 10x(:10 @ 90-96% with :20 easy jog); 2:00 easy jog between sets. 90-96% HR is similar to a 3k-5k race, so you are running hard but not quite all out. You do not want to run all out on these short 10-second sprints. On the last repeat of the second set, instead of running at 90-96% for :10 you will run for 2:00 all out. For these 2 minutes, you are running as hard as you possibly can. At the end of the 2:00, watch your HR monitor to see where your HR peaks. Then add 5 beats to that. This is your working Max HR from which you can compute your HR zones. To compute your HR zones, subtract your resting from your max, take your percentages, then add back in your resting. So 186 MaxHR---50 Resting HR---find 70% of Max. 186-50=136 136X.70=95.2 95.2+51=145.2 (70% MHR)

            Run until the trail runs out.

            2013***1500 miles

            50 miler

             

             

            unsolicited chatter

            http://bkclay.blogspot.com/


            Race Less Train More

              Its not giving me what I think is very accurate info probably because I dont have a recent race time.  I think its assuming your race time would be run at maxHR and thats what it bases the rest of the data with. Even if I put in my most recent time just for 2miles, run at LT pace, its telling me that this would equal maxHR which it clearly doesnt

               Try this one. Put in the desired finish time.

               

              http://www.teamoregon.com/pmc/marwizard.php

               

               

              I still think you will be better served just putting in the miles at LHR.

              Run until the trail runs out.

              2013***1500 miles

              50 miler

               

               

              unsolicited chatter

              http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

                do the numbers in that plan really refer to MILES? seems terribly low mileage to me.

                 

                as a minimal schedule, I would try to start by doing 3-5mile easy runs 3 times a week, and one longer run every two weeks, building up from 5miles to 10. that's what I did when I was a beginner with weak base.

                 

                if following joe friel zones, you could do the 3-5mile easy runs in zone 2 (again what I did..) and the long run should also feel easy, zone 2 then maybe allow HR to drift to 3 if you need that to avoid walking, but not higher.

                 

                then later maybe add a little fartlek... something like that will be useful to get used to faster paces...

                 

                by the way the 180 formula does not place me in zone 2... it's like 10 bpm below lower limit of zone 2... whatever...

                  I'm still so confused. I'm not looking to break any kind of record, or even PR at anything.  IF I were to even attempt a HM in november, I would probably run/walk it. Hell, I KNOW I would have to run/walk it.


                  I'm getting even more frustrated because when you suggest to me to run an easy 3-5 miles, I'm already shaking my head because I'm not even able to endure that distance yet.  3 miles - ok probably, but anything more than that and I feel I'm just asking for my IT band to stare flaring and knocking me back down.

                   

                  Has everyone forgotten what its truly like to be a "beginner"?   For instance, today I ran the TM for 2 miles - it took me a little over 31 minutes to do this (forgot exact time), I basically averaged a 15:47 pace.  I had a 15 minute warm-up and then ran my 2 miles.  My average HR was approx 172, with a calculated MAF of 147-150bpm.  I would've rated my run at a RPE of 7.  Would I intend to do all my running this high - hell no.  But today I just wanted to.  For anything over 2.0 for me right now, I would certainly attempt to stay at a HR of around 160ish - but many of you would object to me doing this becaus it would still put me in HR zone 3 at least.

                   

                  Please dont get me wrong - I know you all are much better runners than I and have a vast wealth of knowledge I could only hope to amass one day.  But it seems like everywhere I turn, there's so much controversy or theories about how to build a base, etc. that my head starts spinning. I get frustrated because all I want to do is "just run" but make progress at the same time. In order to make progress, I need to understand numbers and my paces a little bit better. Last time I just decided to run without conviction, I got injured for a long time. And then I got pregnant - my running has seriously gone to shit and I want to start over the correct way this time.  I feel like I'm re-learnign my body all over again so pleae forgive me if I ask stupid questions, make stupid mistakes, or just feel like a total running loser for a while. I'm not good at the patience thing. 

                   

                  Rant over.  Cry

                    I'm still so confused. I'm not looking to break any kind of record, or even PR at anything.  IF I were to even attempt a HM in november, I would probably run/walk it. Hell, I KNOW I would have to run/walk it.


                    I'm getting even more frustrated because when you suggest to me to run an easy 3-5 miles, I'm already shaking my head because I'm not even able to endure that distance yet.  3 miles - ok probably, but anything more than that and I feel I'm just asking for my IT band to stare flaring and knocking me back down.

                     

                    Has everyone forgotten what its truly like to be a "beginner"?   For instance, today I ran the TM for 2 miles - it took me a little over 31 minutes to do this (forgot exact time), I basically averaged a 15:47 pace.  I had a 15 minute warm-up and then ran my 2 miles.  My average HR was approx 172, with a calculated MAF of 147-150bpm.  I would've rated my run at a RPE of 7.  Would I intend to do all my running this high - hell no.  But today I just wanted to.  For anything over 2.0 for me right now, I would certainly attempt to stay at a HR of around 160ish - but many of you would object to me doing this becaus it would still put me in HR zone 3 at least.

                     

                    Please dont get me wrong - I know you all are much better runners than I and have a vast wealth of knowledge I could only hope to amass one day.  But it seems like everywhere I turn, there's so much controversy or theories about how to build a base, etc. that my head starts spinning. I get frustrated because all I want to do is "just run" but make progress at the same time. In order to make progress, I need to understand numbers and my paces a little bit better. Last time I just decided to run without conviction, I got injured for a long time. And then I got pregnant - my running has seriously gone to shit and I want to start over the correct way this time.  I feel like I'm re-learnign my body all over again so pleae forgive me if I ask stupid questions, make stupid mistakes, or just feel like a total running loser for a while. I'm not good at the patience thing. 

                     

                    Rant over.  Cry

                     

                    Cew,

                     

                    FInally getting to this thread...

                     

                    I don't know much about history, don't know much about biology, don't know much about Joe Friel.....

                     

                    You're a beginner. Keep it simple:

                     

                    --Establish your MAF, then run/walk keeping your HR at it.

                    --do this for at least 16 weeks, with no anaerobic running (above MAF)

                    --build your volume of duration a little each week by 5%.

                    --If and when you can run ten miles or a two hour long run comfortably, then think about a half marathon. If you can't run that distance or for that long, you're not ready.

                     

                    Right now, you can run 2:30:00 for the week.

                    Next week run 2:38:00 (5% increase)

                    The week after that, run 2:46:00 (5% of 2:38:00 added to 2:38:00)

                     

                    30% of your total weekly time should be your long run.

                    Your longest run should be 45 minutes right now (150 minutes x .3= 45 minutes).

                     

                    How you divide the rest is up to you, but a good rule of thumb to start is hard/easy day set-up.

                     

                    An example:

                     

                    Saturday--Long (30% of total duration) 45:00

                    Sunday--off

                    Monday--recovery (10% of total duration) 15:00

                    Tuesday-- medium long (20% of total duration) 30:00

                    Wednesday--recovery (10% of total duration) 15:00

                    THursday--medium long (20% of total duration) 30:00

                    Friday--recovery (10% of total duration) 15:00

                     

                    After you slowly built to 5 hours, it will look like this:

                     

                    Saturday--Long (30% of total duration) 1:30:00

                    Sunday--off

                    Monday--recovery (10% of total duration) 30:00

                    Tuesday-- medium long (20% of total duration) 1:00:00

                    Wednesday--recovery (10% of total duration) 30:00

                    THursday--medium long (20% of total duration) 1:00:00

                    Friday--recovery (10% of total duration) 30:00

                     

                    Always take a rest day if you are exhausted, your resting heart rate is more than 5 beats over normal, or you are sick.

                     

                    Always do MAF tests every 2-4 weeks. Every week if you like. Just don't stress about them.

                     

                    You want to take it slow. Think long term. Let your body adapt. It might take a year of MAF running before you are ready for a half marathon. But it will be a year that is worth spending. When you get that aerobic engine built properly, and do it without injury, then you will reap the benefits and be able to run distances and speeds you once thought were out of your reach. MAF running and building volume slowly will make it more probable that you will stay healthy.

                     

                    I wish you the best, Cewickbe The Ranter. Cool

                     

                    --Jimmy

                    log   prs      Crusted Salt comic #142

                     

                      OK, sorry - I was an uber bitch yesterday. To everyone around, maybe even a little today so far too. Don't know what my deal is.

                       

                      Patience is definitely not my thing - you mention 16 weeks and I about keel over.  But ok, I really do "get it" - I just don't want to "do it". 

                       

                      I. will. run. slower.

                       

                      maybe looking at my volume in terms of duration would be a better aspect for me since distance is tripping me up...gonna go crunch some time numbers now.

                       

                      And I sitll love you guys  Blush

                        I'm still so confused. I'm not looking to break any kind of record, or even PR at anything.  IF I were to even attempt a HM in november, I would probably run/walk it. Hell, I KNOW I would have to run/walk it.


                        I'm getting even more frustrated because when you suggest to me to run an easy 3-5 miles, I'm already shaking my head because I'm not even able to endure that distance yet.  3 miles - ok probably, but anything more than that and I feel I'm just asking for my IT band to stare flaring and knocking me back down.

                         

                        Has everyone forgotten what its truly like to be a "beginner"?   For instance, today I ran the TM for 2 miles - it took me a little over 31 minutes to do this (forgot exact time), I basically averaged a 15:47 pace.  I had a 15 minute warm-up and then ran my 2 miles.  My average HR was approx 172, with a calculated MAF of 147-150bpm.  I would've rated my run at a RPE of 7.  Would I intend to do all my running this high - hell no.  But today I just wanted to.  For anything over 2.0 for me right now, I would certainly attempt to stay at a HR of around 160ish - but many of you would object to me doing this becaus it would still put me in HR zone 3 at least.

                         

                        Please dont get me wrong - I know you all are much better runners than I and have a vast wealth of knowledge I could only hope to amass one day.  But it seems like everywhere I turn, there's so much controversy or theories about how to build a base, etc. that my head starts spinning. I get frustrated because all I want to do is "just run" but make progress at the same time. In order to make progress, I need to understand numbers and my paces a little bit better. Last time I just decided to run without conviction, I got injured for a long time. And then I got pregnant - my running has seriously gone to shit and I want to start over the correct way this time.  I feel like I'm re-learnign my body all over again so pleae forgive me if I ask stupid questions, make stupid mistakes, or just feel like a total running loser for a while. I'm not good at the patience thing. 

                         

                        Rant over.  Cry

                         

                         

                        sorry I had no idea you had trouble with 3 mile runs. I should have guessed though..because there must have been a reason why the schedule started so low. but, I don't think you should try a HM in november this year, even though maybe run-walk would work, I still don't know if it is a wise idea.

                         

                        the schedule I outlined, I did that after a 6 week of run-walk program. I think that's important to mention. that run-walk program started at 1min running 1min walking and slowly built me up to 3miles of continuous running. I did not have a HRM initially. the walking breaks helped me do the run-walk schedule without suffering. at the end of the 6 weeks, I was able to do 3miles without a break and I wasn't totally "dead" by the end. (actually 5K, not 3 miles.)

                         

                        before I tried run-walking, I could not run 10minutes without feeling completely spent by the end - that was about one mile so yes I could have gone slower but I did not know how!! the HRM is what taught me how to slow down.

                         

                        and that is how I started doing the 3milers: with a HRM.

                        I did not know about any running science but I listened to my body and this way I determined what HR was a kind of "threshold", beyond which I would feel different. past that threshold it was still not too hard running but I definitely felt different, it was too up-tempo. so I tried to keep below that HR just a little bit for a starter.

                         

                        note, I did read a little about LHR, and tried a test run at 180-age or some similar HR, but I could not get my HR that low and that extra slow pace felt bad for the knees.

                         

                        so what I did instead, I just started lowering the HR gradually. the goal was become able to run at a HR that was truly LHR.

                         

                        so, as I said I started out with 3milers, about 4 times a week. as for HR, it was 5bpm below that above mentioned "threshold". so that was about 12mpw.

                         

                        a few weeks later I changed one of the 3milers to 5miles or so. this was also when I was able to lower my HR zone by 5bpm. a few more weeks of this, and I was able to lower my HR zone by another 5bpm. and I added even more 5milers at the same time (these were 4 milers first actually. then became 5). then one day I was able to do a 10K run without much strain. (I could probably have done it earlier but I did not want to push it.)

                         

                        a few more weeks later, I tried 9miles and it was good. I did 3 and 6 milers usually. by this time I was up at 28mpw or so. I believe I got off track when I decided not to try and lower the base HR zone again AND instead I added some slightly faster runs. I got a little setback there and then I tried MAF running and that helped me get back on track. after that MAF base build phase, I was back to faster runs and then I was able to improve further. but you know the rest, don't always race, need base build at low HR at times, etc. etc. Smile

                         

                        the above may be better described in times, I agree about that with jimmyb. for me the 3milers were about 35-40minutes. the 5milers were about 1 hour runs. the first 9 mile (a bit more than 9, nevermind that) was 1 hour 50mins.

                         

                        more data, I got from 12mpw to 28mpw in 3 months or so. from 2.5 hours to 5 hours. always 4 runs a week, except for the 28mpw, that was 5 (maybe too much).

                         

                        as you can see I only used the HRM to make sure I was able to keep lowering my running HR and to increase distances gradually. it never caused any frustration, I did not have to walk-run and I truly enjoyed myself.

                         

                        but do not forget, I started with walk-run originally. this walk-run was not done at MAF HR at all, they were more like intervals though I did not know that at the time. I do think that there were several advantages to this schedule: 1) the walk breaks were very helpful to avoid getting out of breath 2) I was able to run faster than 15min/mile and not get frustrated 3) because of 2), it increased fitness pretty fast.

                         

                        if you find you can't tolerate such run-walk where the runs are at a faster pace than walk pace, then you should try keeping the HR low even for the run parts. HRM can help with that. you may not have to keep it as low as MAF unless you find you cannot progress another way. this can be individual.

                         

                        hope this helps...

                         

                        by the way I understand you may have to start out even more gradually than me, the above was just my story to give you an example about starting out really gradually.

                         

                        jimmyb's schedule is pretty good too... mine is only an example of running with a HRM and enjoy it without frustration. but hopefully you can learn to like MAF if you find MAF running is what you need to progress.

                         

                        also, I wonder if your treadmill is calibrated good? how does running outside feel for you?

                           .

                            

                          but I could not get my HR that low and that extra slow pace felt bad for the knees.

                           

                           

                          but do not forget, I started with walk-run originally. this walk-run was not done at MAF HR at all, they were more like intervals though I did not know that at the time. I do think that there were several advantages to this schedule: 1) the walk breaks were very helpful to avoid getting out of breath 2) I was able to run faster than 15min/mile and not get frustrated 3) because of 2), it increased fitness pretty fast.

                           

                          if you find you can't tolerate such run-walk where the runs are at a faster pace than walk pace, then you should try keeping the HR low even for the run parts. HRM can help with that. you may not have to keep it as low as MAF unless you find you cannot progress another way. this can be individual.

                            

                           

                          I've noticed that my body is in fact hurting more when I jog slower.  My back is especially killing me - even after seeing the chiropractor 3 days a week. Ive been cranky about it for the last couple of days. Finally better today though - Ive been wondering if this could be the cause of it since it seems to peak a few hours after my "run".  I'll have to keep an eye on that

                           

                          Also, this is EXACTLY the way I feel about the whole MAF vs. LHR thing.  YOu hit the nail right on the head.  To keep my HR at or below my MAF of 150, I can seriously only jog for about 20 seconds maybe 3x during the whole process. Then my HR shoots right past 150 and starts alarming. As soon as it hits 145 I stop running and go back to walking because I know its still going to rise a few more beats before coming back down.  I don't mind run/walking, but when my intended workout for day leaves me just doing a fast walk, I no longer feel like a "runner"  I just feel like I wasted my time.  Hence my frustration.

                           

                           MTA: I didnt even need to run this slow when I started C25K, so I feel even less like a runner now, 4 years later

                           

                          I don't understand why I can't make similar progress to what you made in your early stages by just keeping my HR at approx 165. I think that would be much more tolerable mentally for me and better for my body.  I went back to a MAF run today and still felt like I shouldve done more. I followed the other plan, and only went for 31:30 mins, but if that time included my 15:00 warm-up, that left me only doing a real workout for 16:30! I can almost hear everyone scoffing at that., including myself.

                          I just feel like I can do more than what "the plans" are suggesting

                             

                            also, I wonder if your treadmill is calibrated good? how does running outside feel for you?

                             

                            I'm usually using the TM at the gym, which does seem to match up pretty closely to my TM at home.

                             

                            I like running outside much better, but the humidity is so dangerous and untolerable here at the moment, I try not be outside more than what is necessary.  Once fall starts rollng around though, I'll be out there as much as possible


                            Petco Run/Walk/Wag 5k

                              OK, sorry - I was an uber bitch yesterday. To everyone around, maybe even a little today so far too. Don't know what my deal is.

                               

                              Patience is definitely not my thing - you mention 16 weeks and I about keel over.  But ok, I really do "get it" - I just don't want to "do it". 

                               

                              I. will. run. slower.

                               

                              maybe looking at my volume in terms of duration would be a better aspect for me since distance is tripping me up...gonna go crunch some time numbers now.

                               

                              And I sitll love you guys  Blush

                               

                              Duration - it will help avoid injury. Mileage and pace improvement follows duration, and if you MAF it you can avoid over training injuries that way. Abt the only time I run for distance is during a race! LOL Also note I am a late to running old slow fart who kept getting injured, somewhat seriously, using other training approaches. Love MAFing and getting out there!

                               

                              btw: have to agree about heat/humidity its driven me into gym and dreadmills here in Austin. 

                              bob e v
                              2014 goals: keep on running! Is there anything more than that?

                              Complete the last 3 races in the Austin Distance Challenge, Rogue 30k, 3M Half, Austin Full

                              Break the 1000 mi barrier!

                              History: blessed heart attack 3/15/2008; c25k july 2008 first 5k 10/26/2008 on 62nd birthday.

                              Dimat


                                 Hey I'm really new at this also. It really does put alot more stress on your body. Your taking a unnaturally short slide and probably bouncing alot. I actually feel it in my achilies and ankles myself. It will probably take a bit for your body to adjust, just like anything else.(I tell myself that anyways) .

                                 

                                 I can also understand your frustration at running so slow. I'm running about the same as you. Two miles takes me 20 minutes and 3 took me 41.30. I didn't know if I should be excited at running for 41 minutes or be disgusted that I only ran 3 miles in that time. I keep reminding myself that I'm running at the bottom of the aerobic zone and it's what I should expect. I can see how it would be easy to keep adding miles with time although I feel like I'm in a chain gang running with shackles on.

                                 

                                 For myself I do plan to stick with it and see if I can get to a point where my stride lengthens out so running becomes more smoother and I stop looking like I'm running in the Special Olympics.

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