Low HR Training

1

Lydiard training gives the quickest progress (Read 914 times)

Shondek


    I know I know I'm all over the place Maff then Lance now Lydiard.

    This is going to be about me hopefully demonstrating to you how Lydiards base plan gets fast(relatively) results.

     

    My goal this week is to improve my average pace on my 45 min out and back run by more than 1 sec to give me a first sub 12min average pace by next week.Easier said than done.

     

    Listed below are some of the prerequisites  I have set upon myself.

     

    1 Eat every 6 hours.

    This is impossible for me as I have my breakfast too late.So i only eat twice a day starting with a very large high protein/low carb breakfast. at 9am,the less carbs I eat the longer I can stave off the hunger pangs.

     

    No eating between meals and nothing after evening meal at 6pmish.Just drink warm water

    Cut out all all high glycemic carbs similar to 2 week test but include berries  and pulses(handful).

    This should help my fat burning function..maybe!!

     

    2)5 minute walking warm up/warm down during every run.

    This initial walk warm up to a particular lamp post took 5min-15sec 6 months ago and I now have it down to 4-23.keeping my pulse below 100.

    This will replace my maf test and if I have done anything untoward previously my time can go to 5min+.This way i am having a daily monitor. 

     

    3)All my runs must have a negative split.

    This what makes it  a Lydiard plan.He always wanted his runners to do close to a negative split.He described the effort as your maximum aerobic capacity.I will call it my MAC heart rate ie to run as fast as I can at the same effort without slowing down.This magic MAC number(thanks Sean) for me is close to 115bpm.This could increase over time as my endurance improves.

    I can assure you this is well below my maf so nothing controversial here and still in the spirit of Maffetone.No formula was used to reach this MAC number just trial and error,although 180-age-10 did get me there quickly.

     

    4)The 5 Tibetan rites.

    I do these short yoga poses every morning after my run.They seem to help me be more disciplined with my diet and improve strength and hamstring flexibility.Highly recommended!

     

    NB  There is a warning that they can exacerbate some illnesses. No issues for me so far.

     

    http://www.mkprojects.com/pf_TibetanRites.htm

     

    Monday        1hr

    Tuesday      1.5hr<115

    Wed              1 hr

    Thur               2hr<115

    fri                    1hr

    Sat                  off

    Sunday          2.5hr <115

     

    All at 115 and below

     

    Today run

     

    Laps

    <form>

    <colgroup span="12"></colgroup> <tfoot> </tfoot>

    Split

    Time

    Moving Time

    Distance

    Elevation Gain

    Elevation Loss

    Avg Pace

    Avg Moving Pace

    Best Pace

    Avg HR

    Max HR

    Calories

    Summary 1:29:52.8 1:29:38.0 7.47 66 67 12:02 12:00 7:52 115 139 805
    1 12:04.6 11:58 1.00 14 23 12:05 11:58 7:52 110 128 106
    2 12:09.7 12:08 1.00 8 9 12:10 12:08 9:42 115 139 108
    3 12:09.0 12:08 1.00 4 2 12:09 12:08 9:16 115 136 107
    4 11:48.5 11:47 1.00 7 5 11:48 11:47 9:08 118 125 109
    5 11:58.6 11:58 1.00 3 4 11:59 11:58 9:36 116 125 110
    6 11:57.6 11:57 1.00 2 3 11:58 11:57 8:55 116 124 109
    7 11:41.4 11:39 1.00 10 13 11:41 11:39 8:37 116 123 109
    8 6:03.4 6:03 0.47 18 8 12:56 12:55 9:35 115 1
    </form>

     


      Shondek:

       

      You are obviously giving this a lot of study and consideration.  I wonder with your age, pace and MAF, why all the study?  Skip the sugar, lower the carbs, run and enjoy.  What difference does a few seconds make?  

       

      I am 56, use a MAF of 125 and run between 10:00 and 12:00 minute mile pace depending on how I feel, the temperature, humidity, etc.  I am now realizing that a few seconds do not matter much to me.  I want to be healthy, fit and avoid injury.  Any of the programs you mentioned will probably do that.

      ___________

      Chris

      Shondek


        Shondek:

         

        You are obviously giving this a lot of study and consideration.  I wonder with your age, pace and MAF, why all the study?  Skip the sugar, lower the carbs, run and enjoy.  What difference does a few seconds make?  

         

        I am 56, use a MAF of 125 and run between 10:00 and 12:00 minute mile pace depending on how I feel, the temperature, humidity, etc.  I am now realizing that a few seconds do not matter much to me.  I want to be healthy, fit and avoid injury.  Any of the programs you mentioned will probably do that.

         Hi Chris,

        If someone who was grossly over weight said to you I want to loose 1lb or more by next week would you say:

        '...welllllllllll.....going by your age and size what difference is 1lb going to make.I am couple of pounds lighter than you and I now realise a few pounds do not matter that much to me.'

         

        Probably not

          I see your point with regard to pounds and agree with you.  When overweight normally it is important to a person to see progress by losing pounds (but see reference below to Maffetone's discussion of inches v pounds) .  

           

          I do not necessarily apply that same logic to "pace."  Does running a few seconds faster make you more fit?  Does it make you lose more weight?  I am not sure.  It may, however, make you more motivated which is an important factor.

           

          I just do not believe that given my age, weight, etc. a few seconds off pace is an important measurement.  I understand, however, that pace is the standard by which runners normally track their progress.  That is hard to get away from.

           

          It is like Maffetone's discussion of weight.  He says to measure your waist size in inches.  If it is decreasing that is a good thing.  He says do not worry about weight.  Your weight will fluctuate and adjust.  If you are losing inches at the waist you are improving.  Inches around your waist is not the normal standard; weight is.  Thus, it is hard to not track progress in pounds.

           

          Pace is comparable.  It is the standard we use to judge our progress but I question whether it is the right standard.

           

          Just my thoughts..

          ___________

          Chris

          Shondek


            I see your point with regard to pounds and agree with you.  When overweight normally it is important to a person to see progress by losing pounds (but see reference below to Maffetone's discussion of inches v pounds) .  

             

            I do not necessarily apply that same logic to "pace."  Does running a few seconds faster make you more fit?  Does it make you lose more weight?  I am not sure.  It may, however, make you more motivated which is an important factor.

             

            I just do not believe that given my age, weight, etc. a few seconds off pace is an important measurement.  I understand, however, that pace is the standard by which runners normally track their progress.  That is hard to get away from.

             

            It is like Maffetone's discussion of weight.  He says to measure your waist size in inches.  If it is decreasing that is a good thing.  He says do not worry about weight.  Your weight will fluctuate and adjust.  If you are losing inches at the waist you are improving.  Inches around your waist is not the normal standard; weight is.  Thus, it is hard to not track progress in pounds.

             

            Pace is comparable.  It is the standard we use to judge our progress but I question whether it is the right standard.

             

            Just my thoughts..

             Point taken Chris, thanks

            Shondek


              Did an easy one hour this morning and decide to do 2x5sec sprints with 5 min recovery.I must admit it makes legs feel a lot lighter and sprightly.My walking maf test tomorrow morning will answer all my questions.

                A few questions, Shon.

                 

                About the negative split and the MAC.  There is  heart rate at which if you can run that will produce a negative split----with the heart rate remaining steady? I look at your chart and see that your HR stayed between 115-116 on average, which is about as close as you can really get to being spot on. I noticed you slowed down in the last split. Is that when you stop the run? When it stops being a negative split?

                 

                Does Lydiard instruct going lower in intensity until you find this effort? 

                 

                Thanks. I might have more later.

                 

                --Jimmy 

                log   prs      Crusted Salt comic #142

                 

                Shondek


                  A few questions, Shon.

                   

                  About the negative split and the MAC.  There is  heart rate at which if you can run that will produce a negative split----with the heart rate remaining steady? I look at your chart and see that your HR stayed between 115-116 on average, which is about as close as you can really get to being spot on. I noticed you slowed down in the last split. Is that when you stop the run? When it stops being a negative split?

                   

                  Does Lydiard instruct going lower in intensity until you find this effort? 

                   

                  Thanks. I might have more later.

                   

                  --Jimmy 

                   Questions ? Shertainly 007...I mean James

                   

                  I think finding the magic MAC number that will give me a negative split will vary depending on the usual outdoor conditions, previous days training   and routes.

                   

                  My run starts and ends at the top of a hill and even though I am bringing my heart rate down initially in the 15 minute warm down the last 12 mins is uphill land I am walking ,not ideal for a warm down.

                   

                  You mention when it stops being a negative split reminds me what you were talking about in the past.

                  On a perfectly flat course every heart rate at MAC and below must have a particular distance that can be covered.ie you run at that effort until you slow down...Hmmmm!?

                   

                  Lydiard said do your runs as fast as you can without  slowing down aerobically.Using our heart rate monitors we know what aerobic is we just have to find the effort where we dont slow down ..Obviously the distance of the run will determine the speed.

                   

                  9 second run....a sprint

                   

                  2.5 hour run......below MAC?.

                   

                  2 mile run.............@ maf

                   

                  Also remember he was working with young guys who would naturally fall way below maf on a comfortable run.

                   

                  This mornings hour run  failed to get a negative split  with a heart rate of 106.Only a week into this MAC running so cant be conclusive but it seems its difficult to get a negative split the day after a long run,or it means it was still too fast,it was windy tho..

                   

                  Keep them coming Jimmy 

                  Shondek


                    First week of Lydyard/Maffetone .I was hoping for at least a 2 second improvement on last tuesdays 1.5 hr run .

                     

                    Last weeks..

                     

                     


                    Split

                    Time

                    Moving Time

                    Distance

                    Elevation Gain

                    Elevation Loss

                    Avg Pace

                    Avg Moving Pace

                    Best Pace

                    Avg HR

                    Max HR

                    Calories

                    Summary 1:29:52.8 1:29:38.0 7.47 66 67 12:02 12:00 7:52 115 139 805
                    1 12:04.6 11:58 1.00 14 23 12:05 11:58 7:52 110 128 106
                    2 12:09.7 12:08 1.00 8 9 12:10 12:08 9:42 115 139 108
                    3 12:09.0 12:08 1.00 4 2 12:09 12:08 9:16 115 136 107
                    4 11:48.5 11:47 1.00 7 5 11:48 11:47 9:08 118 125 109
                    5 11:58.6 11:58 1.00 3 4 11:59 11:58 9:36 116 125 110
                    6 11:57.6 11:57 1.00 2 3 11:58 11:57 8:55 116 124 109
                    7 11:41.4 11:39 1.00 10 13 11:41 11:39 8:37 116 123 109
                    8 6:03.4 6:03 0.47 18 8 12:56 12:55 9:35 115 1

                     

                     

                     

                    It was a negative split of about 8secs ..Job done..Although there was a lot of >maf which is par for the course('scuse the pun).Hear rate pretty consistent.

                     

                     

                     

                    This mornings route ..same as above

                     

                     

                    <tfoot> </tfoot>

                    Split

                    Time

                    Moving Time

                    Distance

                    Elevation Gain

                    Elevation Loss

                    Avg Pace

                    Avg Moving Pace

                    Best Pace

                    Avg HR

                    Max HR

                    Calories

                    Summary 1:30:01.9 1:29:50.0 7.62 67 67 11:48 11:47 7:37 117 133 832
                    1 12:03.7 12:02 1.00 10 19 12:04 12:02 8:33 109 127 105
                    2 11:33.1 11:33 1.00 6 8 11:33 11:33 7:37 116 128 114
                    3 11:53.6 11:52 1.00 6 4 11:54 11:52 8:45 117 127 105
                    4 11:51.6 11:50 1.00 5 5 11:52 11:50 9:07 118 124 109
                    5 11:38.5 11:37 1.00 7 8 11:38 11:37 9:01 118 125 112
                    6 11:45.2 11:45 1.00 3 3 11:45 11:45 8:50 117 125 111
                    7 11:35.1 11:32 1.00 11 10 11:35 11:32 7:53 119 129 111
                    8 7:07.4 7:06 0.58 19 11 12:14 12:12 9:15 119 133 60
                    9 :33.8 :33 0.04 0 0 13:22 13:02 9:10 125 127 5

                     

                    Slightly confusing at the end I hit the lap button by mistake.It was a negative split by about 30 seconds if i remember so I must have started too slow or maybe I should have kept the heart rate down on the way back..Just realised that time of 33sec at split 9 is negative spit time.I'm not sure where I'm going with this but as long as i keep getting slight negative splits it will start to clarify itself.

                     

                    My average heart rate is a couple of beats higher than last week but still in the ballpark ..not as scientific as I wanted it sorry guys.At least my average max heart rate is down Chris

                      I know I know I'm all over the place Maff then Lance now Lydiard.

                       

                       

                      Cool stuff.

                       

                      I like getting negative split myself or at least even pace. I just have a HR ceiling and I let the HR rise (but keep it below limit until end of run).

                       

                      I don't have any HR range where I would negative split without HR increasing. I guess this is individual, some people can do it, some can't and I don't think it matters.