Low HR Training

"Anaerobic" Phase HRT (over MAF) Reports & Discussion (Read 5995 times)


Master of Inconsistency

    Ace, I've got my 20 miler set for Sunday and your plan sounds great. I think I'll steal it myself. Big grin Greg

    Ain't  Wastin' Time No More !

      I will be here soon. From my next long run on, I will be doing Jimmy'- modified Pfitz long runs. I will be starting slow and then working my heart rate through the 140s, 150s and into the lower 160s, trying to keep an even pace or a negative split.
      Cool. Remember that my heart rate plan is based on the HRR. 78%HRR being the ceiling. I also divide into quarters.I based it on Pfitzinger's zone of 65-78%HRR or 73-83% MHR. I just spend more time in the first half in a heavier fat-burning zone. Works well for me. 1st quarter= top out at 58-59% HRR 2nd Quarter= top out at 64-65% HRR 3rd Quarter=top out at 70-71% HRR 4th Quarter=top out at 78% HRR This relates to MHR for me like this: 1st quarter= top out at 68-69% MHR 2nd Quarter= top out at 73-74% MHR 3rd Quarter=top out at 78-79% MHR 4th Quarter=top out at 83% MHR You should see a negative split. Good luck! And remember to take an easy day under MAF the following day! --Jimmy

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        to figure HRR zone just use: (MHR-RHR) Multiply the result by the % effort (MHR-RHR) x .78 (78%) take that result and add RHR to it ((MHR-RHR) x .78 (78%)) + RHR= That';s your number example with my 199 MHR and 50 RHR (199-50)=149 149x.78=116.2 116 + 50=166 bpm Good luck --Jimmy

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          P.S. One more thing. I'm finding that my average pace for the first 3/4's of the run (minus first mile) is pretty darn close to 20% slower than marathon pace. And the last quarter, 10% slower. It's another indicator, along with lactate threshold runs for how fast you can currently run a marathon. --Jimmy

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            to figure HRR zone just use: (MHR-RHR) Multiply the result by the % effort (MHR-RHR) x .78 (78%) take that result and add RHR to it ((MHR-RHR) x .78 (78%)) + RHR= That';s your number example with my 199 MHR and 50 RHR (199-50)=149 149x.78=116.2 116 + 50=166 bpm Good luck --Jimmy
            Got it. However, my max HR is so high I think it skews things. My max is 219 and resting is 60, so I get 184 from the formula. According to Hadd, my avg marathon HR will be 175-177 at best, so I think 184 is too high. So, I was going to top out more like 165 in my 4th Qtr. Thanks for the marathon indicator info as well. I know my wife will want to do an upcoming run this way as well. Her Hadd test a few weeks back and LT run today point to the exact same marathon prediction (within a minute).
              P.S. One more thing. I'm finding that my average pace for the first 3/4's of the run (minus first mile) is pretty darn close to 20% slower than marathon pace. And the last quarter, 10% slower. It's another indicator, along with lactate threshold runs for how fast you can currently run a marathon. --Jimmy
              You have probably typed this before, but how do you predict marathons from lactate threshold runs? Is there a certain # of miles at threshold and/or any formulas you use, or is it just that your LT pace in training = marathon pace?
                You have probably typed this before, but how do you predict marathons from lactate threshold runs? Is there a certain # of miles at threshold and/or any formulas you use, or is it just that your LT pace in training = marathon pace?
                Jimmy, One more question in addition to Ace's....How did you determine your lactate threshold?
                  Jimmy, One more question in addition to Ace's....How did you determine your lactate threshold?
                  If you don't want to draw blood...your lactate threshold (LT) will be just over your best marathon average HR. Your 15k-half marathon average HR should be right on or just above your LT. I looked at your log and saw your 10 miles race stats (175 avg/195 max). From that, I would guess that your best marathon HR would be in the 170-175 range, and I'd guestimate your LT to be in the 175 area. If your HRmax is really around 195, and I think Jimmy does his LT runs at 80-90% HRmax--this would be in the 156-176 range for you. So, without drawing blood, I think you are pretty safe assuming your LT is in the mid 170s. Of course, we will all sleep better with Jimmy's input!
                    You have probably typed this before, but how do you predict marathons from lactate threshold runs? Is there a certain # of miles at threshold and/or any formulas you use, or is it just that your LT pace in training = marathon pace?
                    I use a zone of 81-88%HRR (about 86-91% MHR) for 20-40 minutes. I get to the 81% in the first mile, then let it rise to 88%, speeding up or slowing down if I have to. The pace I get falls about 15k-half marathon pace RELATIVE to my fastest possible marathon according to CURRENT fitness. Basically, I'll take the LT ave pace, go to the McMillan calculator and find a marathon pace that gives me the LT pace for a 15k pace. I find that the LT pace actually falls about half way in between 15k-half marathon pace relative to shorter races. I match it up with the 15k number to be on the slow side (usually only a minute difference in terms of the marathon time). I find it to be pretty accurate within a few minutes come marathon time. I adjust to faster times, as I go through training. Here's a little chart of my LT runs and relative marathon race paces: date.....LT......MRP 1/16....8:03....8:41 (3:47:20) 1/20....7:45....8:21 (3:38:45) 1/27....7:37....8:13 (3:35:00) 2/17....7:29....8:04 (3:31:15) All the above runs were done on the TM in about 65ºF. The marathon I am running will most likely be in the 60's part of the race, so this is more realistic than if I ran them outside in 20-40º temps. I recently did an all-out 5k in 21:36 (6:59 pace) on 2/3/08. when popped into the calculator, it gave 7:28 for 15k pace and 3:30:34 for the marathon. Considering it was around 45ºF during the race, that is about right on with the LT runs I was doing around that date (1/27 and 2/17). Now, Ace, you have a 219 MHR, and I know Hadd, for some odd reason, gives you and someone with a 193 MHR the same training zones. The only marathon in which I recorded HR info, I averaged 178, using Hadd's averaging method. So, that was VERY close to the 177 he gives. I urge you to figure out an indicator system for yourself. What works for me might not work for you, but then again it might. Suggested indicators of current marathon fitness: --LT runs. I use a zone of 81-88%HRR (about 86-91% MHR) for 20-40 minutes. I work up to 40 minutes over a series of LT runs. Take that number and match it to a MRP on the McMillan calculator that has a 15k time that is the same as your current LT. --any recent all-out race time. Take it and pop it into the calculator. See what it gives you. ALways record the temperature in which you were running. This comes into play when making your pace plan for the marathon. --Do an aerobic run like the following: 1st quarter= top out at 58-59% HRR 2nd Quarter= top out at 64-65% HRR 3rd Quarter=top out at 70-71% HRR 4th Quarter=top out at 78% HRR This relates to MHR like this: 1st quarter= top out at 68-69% MHR 2nd Quarter= top out at 73-74% MHR 3rd Quarter=top out at 78-79% MHR 4th Quarter=top out at 83% MHR Average the first three quarters (minus first mile), this is aprox. 20% slower than best marathon pace relative too current fitness. Average the last quarter. This is aprox 10% slower than best marathon pace. --If you have any HR information from all-out marathons, you can do MRP runs that mirror the HR plan of the first miles in the marathon. See what pace it gives you. For example: These splits are from the Sugarloaf marathon in 2006: 1) 8:30 152 2) 8:32 159 3) 8:16 162 4) 8:11 167 5) 8:10 168 6) 8:11 171 7) 8:17 171 8) 8:13 170 9) 9:00 173 10)8:35 171 11) 7:58 169 12) 7:46 168 13) 7:38 175 14) 7:46 175 15) 7:47 173 16) 7:35 172 17) 7:25 174 18) 7:46 176 19) 7:36 179 20) 7:51 181 21) 7:58 181 22) 8:17 180 23) 8:18 179 24) 7:54 183 25) 7:33 187 25.2) 1:42 189 26.2) 7:33 189 I could construct a 10 mile MRP training run that uses the HR zone of 152-171. Or a 14 miler that uses 152-175. See what I get. It could give some valuable info. I do this in training, normally I'll run a 3-5 mile warm-up first. --Pfitzinger says if you run a 22-miler and use the 20%, 10% plan, or the 65-78% HRR, you shoould be able to run a marathon in the same time you get for the run. ALWAYS record temperature. You will have to adjust for race day if it will be warmer. There's my indicator book! Good luck, and KEEP GOING! --Jimmy p.s. WARNING: Even though I use Pfitzinger's zone, I warn you against them. This zone that tops out at 78% HRR is from ADVANCED Marathoning by Pfitzinger. It is for ADVANCED runners. It is designed for runners with at least a 55 mile per week base. Using the 70-78% HRR zone in the last 1/4 of a run is very hard on the body. It is used to teach running hard while tired in the end of a MARATHON. I suggest you stay away from them until you have a base of 55-60 miles at least. Take it or leave it. Move ahead at own risk.

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                      If you don't want to draw blood...your lactate threshold (LT) will be just over your best marathon average HR. Your 15k-half marathon average HR should be right on or just above your LT. I looked at your log and saw your 10 miles race stats (175 avg/195 max). From that, I would guess that your best marathon HR would be in the 170-175 range, and I'd guestimate your LT to be in the 175 area. If your HRmax is really around 195, and I think Jimmy does his LT runs at 80-90% HRmax--this would be in the 156-176 range for you. So, without drawing blood, I think you are pretty safe assuming your LT is in the mid 170s. Of course, we will all sleep better with Jimmy's input!
                      Thanks. I tried to use the 10 mile race to estimate it as well. I guessed around 170. The weather was unbearable that day. It was like doing a treadmill run in a sauna. My HR spiked into the mid 140s just doing a slow warm-up jog. I'm not sure if I would have been able to maintain that high of a HR under normal condtions. Since that is the only race of that kind that I've done, I don't have a lot of information to go on.
                        Just to add about using the McMillan Calculator. It takes some major aerobic work to even get close to that number it gives you for a marathon, based on indicators. Conditions have to be right, you have to be well trained with aerobic fitness tip-top, must be well-rested, and healthy. The number is for fairly flat courses. Adjustments should be made going in, if you plan to follow a pace plan, and not a HR plan. That's where it can get tricky. I follow a pace plan, as I don't like using HRM's in races for many reasons. The closest I've got is 3 minutes, though that race I was running on an injured foot, I had no sleep the night before, and the course wasn't that flat. I held back a bit in the end because of the foot, I probably could have gotten a lot closer, perhaps within a 1-2 minutes (made nice PR though of 3:22, indicators said 3:19). My first two marathons I was off by quite a bit, but by the third I was getting close: 1st marathon Cape Cod 10/31/2004 (4:14) (INDICATORS 3:36:00) =38 minutes off, was going for a 3:59 (tough hilly course, 71º, humid, ate pancakes an hour before the race, my first marathon)--huge crash. Death march of 5 miles. 2nd Marathon Vermont City 5/29/05 (3:45) (Indicators 3:28)=17 minutes off, was going for a 3:39.00, but the course is definitely not flat, the temps reached 69º, I ate pancakes 1 hour before the race again (just didn't know). I hit the wall at mile 23, and had a hard time the rest of the way, not as bad as Cape Cod 3rd Marathon Philadelphia Marathon 11/19/05 (3:28) (indicators 3:24)=4 minutes off, was going for 3:28, and nailed it. Gave it everything. Temps started in 40's and reached 55º--perfect. Didn't eat closer than four hours before race. First time I Introduced MAF runs into training. I used it for some medium long, but mostly for recovery days. No crash, no wall, no slowing. 4th Marathon Boston 4/17/08--training run (3:52) for Sugarloaf--in retrospect, not a good idea. I tried it and it just left me fried for a month. An experiment that proved to me that a 26.2 mile long run isn't the best idea during training, especially a month before the goal race. I felt like I ran a marathon. Hey, I did! 5th Marathon: Sugarloaf 5/21/06 (3:30)(indicators 3:27)=3 minutes off, was going for 3:27, but the course was much tougher than expected in the first half. Boston might have had an effect as well. No crash, no wall. Lots of MAF miles for this one. 6th Marathon Philadelphia 11/19/06 (3:22) (indicators 3:19)=3 minutes off. This was really the closest I've gotten as I could have gone a touch faster in the second half, but decided to not push as hard as I normally would in the last miles. Worried about foot. Lots of MAF miles for this one. I haven't yet developed a formula for myself, though it seems adding 3 or more minutes to the time depending on the course, weather, and general conditioning, wouldn't be a bad idea. Again, it all comes down to figuring out a system for yourself based on all the information gathered before your marathons. If the temps get near 70 or over, adding is a must. here's a little blurb from the Jeff Galloway website about heat: quoted from Jeff Galloways Website: Adjusting Race Pace for Heat: Estimated temperature at finish - Slower than goal pace - 8 min mile becomes... 55-60 degrees - 1% - 8:05 60-65 degrees - 3% - 8:15 65-70 degrees - 5% - 8:25 70-75 degrees - 7% - 8:35 75-80 degrees - 12% - 8:58 80-85 degrees - 20% - 9:35 Above 85 degrees - Forget it... run for fun * Note: This chart is based upon my own experience in the heat and talking to other runners. It has no scientific verification ********************end quote******************* Here are a few articles about predicting pace: PICK YOUR PERFECT MARATHON PACE Yasso 800's McMilllan on Predicting MRP End of book 2! --Jimmy

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                          USING MAF AS A MARATHON RACE PACE PREDICTORS. on page 53 of Training for Endurance 2nd Revised Edition by Phil Maffetone ©2000. Maffetone gives a chart based on his" hundreds of tests and several racing seasons." I popped the 5k times on Maffetone's chart into the McMillan calculator and added the equivalent marathon times: MAF....5k pace....5k time.....Marathon.....Mpace 10:00....7:30..........23:18..........3:47...........8:41 9:00....7:00..........21:45..........3:32...........8:06 8:30....6:45..........20:58..........3:24...........7:49 7:30....6:00..........18:38..........3:01...........6:56 Marathon.....time.........pace....best MAF test near the marathon Sugarloaf.....3:30:36....8:02................8:57 Philly 2006...3:22:10....7:43................8:31 Pretty close, I beat the predictor by aprox 1:30-2:00 minutes each time. I did these MAF tests on a treadmill in 65-70ºF with a 1% incline, and on tired legs. Perhaps, I could have done the tests faster in a cooler room, no incline, and rested. So, perhaps Maffetone and his chart can be used as an indicator. I'll have to get more data as I go. If anyone has any data to add to this, please share. --Jimmy

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                            I did my Pfitz prescribed LT run last night on the treadmill. It was supposed to be 10 miles with 5 miles at LT. I am still fairly confused about my LT with my high HRmax. I have only completed short races (5k-10k) where my HRavg is in the 200-205 range. Different formulas are a bit contradictory for me with my weird HRmax. So, I decided to average my best two 10k times from 9 and 15 months ago- plug that into McMillan and see what the calculator spit out for a half marathon pace. That pace was 8:00. I figured I would try to ease my way up to an 8:00 pace and see where my HR was. If it did not look like I'd hit 170 at an 8:00 pace, I'd speed up until I did. Here are the results.... 10 miles, 8:51 average pace, 144 average HR, 174 max HR Mile 1, 10:00 pace, 115 HRavg Mile 2, 9:31 pace, 125 HRavg Mile 3, 9:06 pace, 132 HRavg Mile 4, 8:13 pace, 142 HRavg (bathroom break before this mile, so HRavg is a little lower) Mile 5, 8:00 pace, 160 HRavg Mile 6, 8:00 pace, 164 HRavg Mile 7, 7:51 pace, 166 HRavg Mile 8, 7:43 pace, 169 HRavg Mile 9, 10:00 pace, 146 HRavg Mile 10, 10:00 pace, 139 HRavg I looked back and found a treadmill run from 11 months ago before I did any low HR training. In that run, I ran 5.6 miles and picked it up to a 7:17 pace for 1.3 of those miles. I ended up running 5.6 miles, 8:40 pace, 171 HRavg. Last night I ran a similar pace for twice as many miles with a HRavg 27 beats lower! The other interesting thing- that 5.6 mile run from 11 months ago occured about one week before I ran my best 5k to date. I hope that means I could PR now!
                              I am still fairly confused about my LT with my high HRmax. I have only completed short races (5k-10k) where my HRavg is in the 200-205 range. Different formulas are a bit contradictory for me with my weird HRmax.
                              My 5k PR I averaged 93% MHR, fastest mile at 192 or 96% If your 5k averaged 205, that's 93% MHR for you. If your 10k averaged 200, that's 91% MHR for you Our 5k's are very similar %MHR. The Team Oregon pace Wizard gives a max of about 96% MHR for a 5k. 93% MHR for 10k and 91% MHR for 15k. My Lactate threshold runs top out at 90-91% and average about 88-89% 5k's and 10ks are run above lactate threshold. 15ks at just above LT. Why would doing a Pfitzinger LT run using 80-90% MHR not work with your MHR of 219? --Jimmy

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                                My 5k PR I averaged 93% MHR, fastest mile at 192 or 96% If your 5k averaged 205, that's 93% MHR for you. If your 10k averaged 200, that's 91% MHR for you Our 5k's are very similar %MHR. The Team Oregon pace Wizard gives a max of about 96% MHR for a 5k. 93% MHR for 10k and 91% MHR for 15k. My Lactate threshold runs top out at 90-91% and average about 88-89% 5k's and 10ks are run above lactate threshold. 15ks at just above LT. Why would doing a Pfitzinger LT run using 80-90% MHR not work with your MHR of 219? --Jimmy
                                I guess I am under the impression, maybe wrong impression, that it is impossible for anyone for run a marathon with a HRavg over 180, no matter how high their max HR. If that's true, my LT can't be any higher than 180, and is probably more like 175. If my LT is really up near 197 and I can run a marthon with a HRavg in the 190s, then that changes everything. However, I am a little afraid to train and race a marathon with my HR in the 190s if I should really be in the 170s. I may be able to do a 15k in 4 weeks that will give me some info.