Low HR Training

"Anaerobic" Phase HRT (over MAF) Reports & Discussion (Read 6049 times)

wbr


    Hrey Jimmy,

     

    Glad you're paying attention.

    lowgear1


    Max McMaffelow Esq.

      DAMN YOU, BUCKNER!!!                          maybe it's time I let it go??

      1 RUN   NO HITS   1 ERROR
      61 Deg   93 Hum   59 Dew
      Council, IA   Levee run--Out 'n Back
      Boat music:
      Outbound: "Will it go round in circles?" (Will it fly high like a bird up in the sky?) Billy Preston/Orlando Brown
      Inbound: "Whole lotta shakin' goin' on" Jerry Lee Lewis ("The Killer")

      Why this run seemed so difficult, I can't truly say, but when I looked over the data, I thought I saw a nice improvement!? Take away the w/u and c/d, and the actual run pace wasn't too shabby compared to recent. Dewpoint has approached an uncomfortable level compared to previous weeks.
      College World Series in town!!
      lg
      ♪ ♫ Hey, hey, we're Maf Monkees And people say we monkey around. ♪ ♫ (The Monkees)
      Give me 12:59 in '09, please. I deserve it! (Maf of course)..No more teens! No more teens! (ME! ME! ME!)
      ♪ ♫ I Thank The Lord For The Night Time...And I Thank The Lord For You ♪ ♫ (Neil Diamond)


      Happy

        Very nice run, LG -


        The dew point may be intolerable but the 61F sounds wonderful 


        I looked at your 1/4mile splits and saw mostly 3min and some seconds - at the end there was a 2:28 quarter mile split with a HRmax of 142 before you started your cooldown.

        During the main part of your run I thought it seemed your HR was very nice and smooth the entire time - the AVHR being consistent and the HRmax being just a few beats higher than the AVHR in each segment - no HRmax out of control. 


        LG, what is your HRmax and have you tried finding your HRzones with %of HR reserve as per the Karvonen method? I am just curious to see what percentage effort you ran this run. 


        Have you ever tried running strides? They train the neuromuscular system and help your body learn how to run comfortably with a faster leg turnover. Doing strides does not involve becoming anearobic because the strides are very short bursts of faster running. I'll be glad to describe for you how to do them if you are interested in trying this. It is usually a lot of fun and breaks up the monotony of an easy run without making you anearobic.

        5K, 4/28/07 24:16 PR 10K, 5/5/07 49:23 PR 1/2 M, 12/08/07 1:49:34 PR Marathon, 12/09/06 3:57:37 BQ 50K, 10/04/2009 7:27:00 PB 40M, 4/17/2010 11:20:00 PB


        Happy

          I love my rest days.

          My mind plays me a few tricks: It gets the idea that it wants me to go out for a run later in the day - I used to do that before; take the morning off and push the run to the evening - that gave me more rest time. But this time, I have to decline the invitation to run later in the day. I am committed to having a full day for REST after my run day.

          I tell my mind that the rest is one of the most important aspects of my training - on the rest day is when the adaptations take place; the rest allows me to absorb the training and it also leaves me well rested for tomorrow's run. This means I can run better tomorrow. Rest is a double edged sword - it gives me and edge! 

          5K, 4/28/07 24:16 PR 10K, 5/5/07 49:23 PR 1/2 M, 12/08/07 1:49:34 PR Marathon, 12/09/06 3:57:37 BQ 50K, 10/04/2009 7:27:00 PB 40M, 4/17/2010 11:20:00 PB
          theyapper


          On the road again...

            Rest days are so nice.  Today I ran 30 minutes: 10 minute warm up, 15 minutes @ 9:06/mile, and 5 minutes cooldown.  Felt good even though it was already 100% humidity @ 6 am.

            I write. I read. I run. One time, I ran a lot on my 50th birthday.

            Paul

            lowgear1


            Max McMaffelow Esq.

              Rest is good.. for sure, and the older one gets, the gooder it is!

              Sorry I haven't answered your questions until now, Flower.

              I've assumed that my mhr is ~180 and my rhr ~48 ...could be 2-3 bpm off in each instance.

              (I've seen 178 in a nearly all -out 5k type effort, and a few bpm lower, occasionally on rhr).

               

              I've seen from one of your previous posts that your mhr is pretty darn high, and your rhr is also in a very nice,

              low range. Isn't that what is commonly thought of as "heart rate reserve"? I can't help but think that such a wide range has got to be beneficial. If I'm calculating correctly my "hrr" would be no less than 132? Yours would be considerably higher if I'm not mistaken. Isn't that where "Hadd" type zones comes in?

               

              Anyway, I have considered venturing into a little stride, fartlek, and hill work, but have been a little timid so

              far. I'll likely sneak in a little of it, but stay mostly in a narrow zone of maf minus 10 through maf plus 10 or

              so. Most of my focus will be on taking total rest days while increasing distance on no more that 4 running days per week, Maybe just three.

              lg

              ♪ ♫ Hey, hey, we're Maf Monkees And people say we monkey around. ♪ ♫ (The Monkees)
              Give me 12:59 in '09, please. I deserve it! (Maf of course)..No more teens! No more teens! (ME! ME! ME!)
              ♪ ♫ I Thank The Lord For The Night Time...And I Thank The Lord For You ♪ ♫ (Neil Diamond)


              Happy

                Rest is good.. for sure, and the older one gets, the gooder it is!

                Sorry I haven't answered your questions until now, Flower.

                I've assumed that my mhr is ~180 and my rhr ~48 ...could be 2-3 bpm off in each instance.

                (I've seen 178 in a nearly all -out 5k type effort, and a few bpm lower, occasionally on rhr).

                 

                I've seen from one of your previous posts that your mhr is pretty darn high, and your rhr is also in a very nice,

                low range. Isn't that what is commonly thought of as "heart rate reserve"? I can't help but think that such a wide range has got to be beneficial. If I'm calculating correctly my "hrr" would be no less than 132? Yours would be considerably higher if I'm not mistaken. Isn't that where "Hadd" type zones comes in?

                 

                Anyway, I have considered venturing into a little stride, fartlek, and hill work, but have been a little timid so

                far. I'll likely sneak in a little of it, but stay mostly in a narrow zone of maf minus 10 through maf plus 10 or

                so. Most of my focus will be on taking total rest days while increasing distance on no more that 4 running days per week, Maybe just three.

                lg

                 

                LG, I haven't taken the time to figure out what HADD is all about but I think you are right about the HRR being fairly large with a high HRmax and a low RHR. 210-41=169

                The HRmax may be higher than that - I haven't actually been running a 5K or any longer speedwork recently so I don't know how high it will go.Whether it is an advantage or not to have a wide gap like that I haven't a clue. All I know is it affects where a certain percentage of HRR lands you in terms of HR.

                You wrote:

                Anyway, I have considered venturing into a little stride, fartlek, and hill work, but have been a little timid so

                far. I'll likely sneak in a little of it, but stay mostly in a narrow zone of maf minus 10 through maf plus 10 or

                so. Most of my focus will be on taking total rest days while increasing distance on no more that 4 running days per week, Maybe just three.

                lg

                This sounds like a very good plan. I think increasing distance is going to go very well for you as long as you get sufficient rest in between. You are becoming quite the ultraman, aren't you?! 

                Thank you for the link to the video of the fantastic 77 year old female triathlon - I watched it all and enjoyed it. She has a great attitude and she is evidently a fantastic competitor. Loved watching it!

                5K, 4/28/07 24:16 PR 10K, 5/5/07 49:23 PR 1/2 M, 12/08/07 1:49:34 PR Marathon, 12/09/06 3:57:37 BQ 50K, 10/04/2009 7:27:00 PB 40M, 4/17/2010 11:20:00 PB


                Happy


                  Cut back week for me - so no long run today.

                  Easy run with moderate progression the last 1.5miles. Trail 2X3.5 mile loop at 7:00am - 75F? Sunny. Nice.


                  Felt good - my body did not have lingering soreness from Wednesdays pick-ups/strides and I felt good during the run. RHR on coach before leaving the house was 41.


                  Did not walk for WU. Just getting the body started gently with jog/run that feels comfortable.


                  I find that I settle into running in the 130s, 140s very comfortably for an easy-run pace that feels naturally comfortable to me. It was my plan to run moderately hard the last 1.5 miles. Given my recent experience with noticing the HR at these higher than MAF efforts I thought I would like to push into the 150s to mid 160s and stay there if possible. When I started pushing the pace I did not get much of a reaction on the HR monitor at first. I decided I needed to push a little harder eventhough I was going uphill and it seemed that all of a sudden the HR jumped from being in the mid 150s to 198. I decided to walk it off. So I did and began running again. This time I succeeded staying in the 150s for the remainder of the run while clearly pushing the pace/effort a notch up from my easy-run pace/effort.


                  Afterwards, my thoughts were, that perhaps my Lactate Threshold is right around 160 and that's why I get the funny jump in HR when I get there. I wonder if I am able to find the LT this way? Any thoughts guys?


                  HADD would have me running below 160 (max minus 50). So HADD might be right on the money for me?!


                  Each loop is 3.47m. The last 0.85m is cool down run/walk.






                  Interval 1 Mi 11:44.53 11:44.53 11:45 128 142  
                  Interval 1 Mi 10:59.43 22:43.96 11:00 137 143  
                  Interval 1 Mi 11:37.58 34:21.54 11:38 144 149  
                  Interval 0.47 Mi 5:14.65 39:36.19 11:10 145 149  
                  Interval 1 Mi 11:12.89 50:49.08 11:13 142 151  
                  Interval 1 Mi 11:07.4 1:01:56.48 11:08 145 150  
                  Interval 1 Mi 11:20.64 1:13:17.12 11:21 157 198  
                  Interval 0.47 Mi 4:40.19 1:17:57.31 9:57 155 158  
                  Interval 0.85 Mi 12:35.22 1:30:32.53 14:49 121 158

                  5K, 4/28/07 24:16 PR 10K, 5/5/07 49:23 PR 1/2 M, 12/08/07 1:49:34 PR Marathon, 12/09/06 3:57:37 BQ 50K, 10/04/2009 7:27:00 PB 40M, 4/17/2010 11:20:00 PB
                  BeeRunB


                    Hey Flower,

                     

                    Hadd suggests 145 bpm or lower for MHR's over 193 for base periods or every day easy running.

                    Your initial lactate threshold heart rate zone would be 155-160bpm. When you are able to run 10 miles without loss of pace and still be able to stay in the 155-160 zone, then you move to 160-165, then play the same game. Below is a quote from his posts. The HADD info available to everyone is really from a series of posts made on a running forum ( I think Letsrun):

                     

                    If your HRmax is 193 OR HIGHER, then the following applies:
                    HRmax: 193+ (even if over 200)

                     

                    Best possible HRmarathon: 175-177 HRav (note, this is the average taken from mile 5 to mile 25, not the peak. Your HR might peak to 181 in the final miles as you throw everything onto the fire).

                     

                    Suggested training HR's: Easy every day running: 145 HR or lower (If you begin really unused to this form of training, initially you might start at 150, but as soon as the pace at this HR improves, it is recommended that you reduce your easy running HR to 145 or lower). This can often feel very slow to begin with, but should improve within 3-6 weeks and continue to improve for months. You may do as much running as you wish at this HR/intensity (always being careful to avoid overuse injury).

                     

                    Initial LTHR (initial lactate threshold heart rate): As with Joe in the example, begin at 155-160 and do not let the HR rise on the run. Build up the distance you can run for, over time, to 10 miles. At first, you may have to slow down within the run to maintain HR, but over the weeks and months, you should note that the running speed begins to remain more stable and you do not have to slow down (so much) to stop your HR rising. In time, the running pace at this HR (and all other HR’s above it) will also improve. Only move this HR up when your running pace vs HR is rock steady and you (easily) are able to run 10 miles at this HR without loss of pace or rise in HR. At that point, only move the HR up by 5bpm and begin again. The slower you build up the first time, the better your pace at HRmarathon will be. Remain at each HR as long as you are seeing improvement on the 2400m test and definitely until your pace vs HR is stable. You are trying to reach a state where your predicted/expected marathon pace and your 170 HR pretty much coincide in the 2400m test. And that this pace per mile can be maintained in training for 10-15 miles at 170-175 HR without rising effort or rising HR.


                    Happy

                      Hey Jimmy, - you're cool! Thanks for taking the time to pinpoint the Hadd training method/HRs for me. I am loving this whole new world that is opening up to me. You know, I had overlooked while I speed read HADD (on the LRC thread) article that he has a 193+ for max HR generalization.

                      You know, Jimmy, it actually feels very good to me to run in the 130s and 140s right now for easy runs so I think I may try to stick with under 145 for a little while and see what happens to the pace.


                      For lactate threshold runs I think 155-160 sounds right - that's where I was in the last .5miles+ of todays run while trying to do a moderate effort (not easy, not hard). Intuitively this feels like the right HR zone for me to be in while staying below LT. Thanks so much for helping me to establish these baselines. It helps tremendously. It gives me a sense of having a little better grip on what I am doing and feeling more confident that I am working in the right zones with regard to HR and pace. 


                      Monitoring the HR is a tool that I have not had to my disposal in earlier training (before this forum) - I always ran either by feel or by pace. I still like to run by feel when on an easy run but having access to almost instantaneously know your HR gives an extra dimension of knowing/not just feeling; I like it. It is a feedback that teaches you to better recognize what it should feel like when you are in the right zone. 


                      Thanks again, Jimmy - you've helped me.

                      5K, 4/28/07 24:16 PR 10K, 5/5/07 49:23 PR 1/2 M, 12/08/07 1:49:34 PR Marathon, 12/09/06 3:57:37 BQ 50K, 10/04/2009 7:27:00 PB 40M, 4/17/2010 11:20:00 PB
                      runnerclay


                      Consistently Slow

                        Thanks jimmyb

                         I will give it ago next week.


                        Run until the trail runs out.

                         SCHEDULE 2016--

                         The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

                        unsolicited chatter

                        http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

                        BeeRunB


                          Hadd Training

                           

                          The full text of his training is above. It makes for a good read.

                           

                          I did this training back when I first started with a HRM in 2004. I saw some postive results for short races, though I tanked in the marathon (my first). I did have a minor injury during the training that lasted through the marathon. Can't say if it was the training or other factors that day (like eating pancakes an hour before the race, humidity, warm, etc.  I rememember my heart rate getting high 3-4 weeks out--probably overtrained a bit.

                           

                          Can't fully vouch for the training. I didn't return to it. I went on to Pfitzinger for the next marathon. I didn't start BQ-ing until I started with Maffetone training.

                           

                          --Jimmy

                           


                          Happy

                            My cut back week is finished so I am back to more easy runs with a little spice put into them. The near term goal is to build mileage while adding a little neuromuscular training and slowly getting the body used to running a little more at faster paces. However, most of the running is easy aerobic type running. Today was a total of 9 miles - the last .5 miles had 6x8sec steep hill sprints in it. They are fast - they are supposed to give me more stride power and strength. I add one 8sec repeat every week - do them on Mondays only. They are supposed to give me more injury resistance in the long run - as I get much stronger from doing them. They also serve the role of preparing me for some anaerobic hill repeats that I am getting ready to start doing soon. I will see how I feel Wednesday.Today, I had the experience of seeing some higher than desired HR during some of the uphill sections of this trail loop course. The first 3 miles went well - after that, it seemed my body was getting tired and started to kick in some higher HR on the uphill segments. I walked them down a few times - at other times I just slowed a little and let it be. I feel I still have one leg planted in LHR training while one leg has moved over to another mode of training. I am not quite ready to let go completely of the LHR - I am a little confused by this.Powered by RunningAHEAD.com





                            5K, 4/28/07 24:16 PR 10K, 5/5/07 49:23 PR 1/2 M, 12/08/07 1:49:34 PR Marathon, 12/09/06 3:57:37 BQ 50K, 10/04/2009 7:27:00 PB 40M, 4/17/2010 11:20:00 PB


                            Happy

                              Quote

                              I found the post below created by Ultrastevep in one of the stickies on LHR training. After having recently learned that my HRmax is 

                              at least 210 I am beginning to understand why I didn't make any pace progress or MAFtest progress when I was running/walking all my

                              runs below 121, which is ageMAF minus 10 (reduction because of injury). I have started to run by feel and I find that most often I am 

                              comfortable when I run in the 130s, 140s, 150s which is still many beats above my ageMAF=131bpm


                              It's a learning curve!



                              posted: 5/18/2007 at 11:59 AM

                              Yes, Chenille, you are correct....

                              Let me tell you a story of my wife's training. Deb is 52 and is a good ultrarunner. She tried the Maffetone Low HR training method by using the formula and was so frustrated she would come back from a workout in tears, thinking that if she can't do this then she must not be running right. She could barely run and mostly had to walk to stay within the recommended zone.

                              Then I took her out one day and did the Max HR test and we found that her max was somewhere around 210 (she reached 201, we added 5 and she still thought she could run harder). Based on that number, at a 70% aerobic pace she should be running at about 160 BPM...20 beats higher than the formula told her! Now she was running comfortable along at 160 bpm, smiling all the way. She threw away the HRM after several months and went back to training by RPE, saying that will be the day something is going to tell her what pace to run. I agree with her and rarely wear my HRM....but my comfortable pace that I train most days is 140, only 5 beats higher than the formula gives me.

                              I think the formula is good to get runners started when they don't know what it's supposed to "feel" like, but after a bit I think finding your max and training at or around 70% is a good place to be..."IF" you don't know how running aerobically is supposed to feel.

                              Many runners are burnt out, are running races slower than their potential or quit running because they think they have to train fast all the time to be fast. That is not the case. 90% of your running should be comfortable...the talk test...be able to carry on a conversation with yourself or someone while running, then take the other 10% and do some strides, intervals or my preference, tempo runs of 3 mile lengths in the middle of a run.

                              5K, 4/28/07 24:16 PR 10K, 5/5/07 49:23 PR 1/2 M, 12/08/07 1:49:34 PR Marathon, 12/09/06 3:57:37 BQ 50K, 10/04/2009 7:27:00 PB 40M, 4/17/2010 11:20:00 PB


                              Happy

                                My 12 mile long run was scheduled for today but I have had some soreness in my right foot/leg after Wednesdays 9 miler and I have decided to take an extra day off for rest and recovery before doing the long-run. So I am off today.

                                It feels great to be able to have the cool to make this decision - in the past I would have tried to push through it, in other words, I would have ignored the pain/soreness and followed the schedule. I hope this extra day before the long-run is going to be enough. Please, have your fingers crossed for me.

                                5K, 4/28/07 24:16 PR 10K, 5/5/07 49:23 PR 1/2 M, 12/08/07 1:49:34 PR Marathon, 12/09/06 3:57:37 BQ 50K, 10/04/2009 7:27:00 PB 40M, 4/17/2010 11:20:00 PB