Low HR Training

"Anaerobic" Phase HRT (over MAF) Reports & Discussion (Read 5995 times)

    Pfitz says that typically, that LTs are in somewhere in the 80-90% of MHR. So, if mine is more around 80% of my MHR, Hadd and Pfitz could both be right. I've googled around and can't find many people who give their max HRs and marathon HRavg together, and the ones who did has HRmax values lower than 193 which did not help. I did find a post by one guy who said he had a 180 HRavg for a marathon, but I did not see anything higher than that.
      one more bit of info- I had a free VO2max test last August which gave me 171 for AT, and told me my lactate/tempo traininng zone was 161-171. However, that test was on a bike so who knows if it is accurate or not. Maybe I'll get tested on a treadmill soon.
        I guess I am under the impression, maybe wrong impression, that it is impossible for anyone for run a marathon with a HRavg over 180, no matter how high their max HR. If that's true, my LT can't be any higher than 180, and is probably more like 175. If my LT is really up near 197 and I can run a marthon with a HRavg in the 190s, then that changes everything. However, I am a little afraid to train and race a marathon with my HR in the 190s if I should really be in the 170s. I may be able to do a 15k in 4 weeks that will give me some info.
        My max HR is ~206. The last half marathon I raced I averaged 181 HR. I think looking back at it, I could have averaged 183 as I had a bit more in the tank the last 1.5 miles than I thought I would. 5 weeks later I ran the Minneapolis Marathon and averaged 179 HR in hot, muggy conditions. The last 8 miles I averaged about 182 I think. I have the data at home. Could I average 179 in a cool weather marathon? Honestly, I don't know. I haven't found anything conclusive in regards to heat, HR, and being able to flush lactate. I know that I couldn't have run much, if any, harder at Minneapolis without blowing up. Keep in mind that just because someone has a high max HR, this doesn't mean their body is similarly capable of sustaining a high percentage of max HR during the race. You have to have the genetics to do so (high vo2max) and also have trained very well to be able to sustain such efforts. Great conversation though...I will try to dig up my HR data from the Minneapolis marathon in the next day or two to compare to my marathon last weekend. Smile
          I guess I am under the impression, maybe wrong impression, that it is impossible for anyone for run a marathon with a HRavg over 180, no matter how high their max HR. If that's true, my LT can't be any higher than 180, and is probably more like 175. If my LT is really up near 197 and I can run a marthon with a HRavg in the 190s, then that changes everything. However, I am a little afraid to train and race a marathon with my HR in the 190s if I should really be in the 170s. I may be able to do a 15k in 4 weeks that will give me some info.
          I understand that Hadd says that about 193+ MHR in those posts that have been compiled. You probably can't go wrong following his advice for your first marathon coming up. Team Oregon Pace calculator gives you 187bpm for the marathon (about 86%). Who is right? You will find that out as you go along.The way I see it , if you are really able to do 187, and if you are using a HR monitor to govern your race, and you try to average 177, you can't go wrong. If that's your plan, I recommend sticking with it. If you decide to make a pace plan, then wear your HRM anyway just to record what happens as you execute your pace plan. Mainly, my discussion with you is to share what I'm thinking when I see your info. If your 5k pace effort matches mine and the Team Oregon Pace Wizard's, and I have 20 bpm less than you for an MHR, and if your other %MHR efforts for other distances also match mine and the calculator, then I don't know why your MRP % effort wouldn't match mine (87%) or the calculator. Team Oregon Pace Wizard gives me a 171 (86%) based on my 199 MHR, I averaged 173 (87%) at Sugarloaf (all splits averaged in). My MHR could be a few beats higher, 199 is the highest I've seen. I did Hadd for my first marathon (4:14). I thought it was a fun, worthy experiment. I didn't do well at the marathon for what could have been a variety of reasons, which could have included that the Hadd program doesn't work, or it could have been about 5 other reasons, the main one being that it was my first marathon and I had only been running a year and a half. Even though indicators said I could go much faster, I couldn't that day. I'll never know why really, I can only speculate (it was the pancakes!!!). All my other race times got a lot better, due to the volume of aerobic miles. It was always in the back of my mind that Hadd is basically some anonymous guy who posted on the Letsrun Message Board. Whereas Maffetone, Parker, Pfitzinger, Galloway, Higdon and Daniels are all out in the open, and we know their experience, we don't really know Hadd's. we have no clue if he was a shmo like me, just playing around with stats and numbers and who experimented on one guy, or a guy just making it all up, or some big name coach somewhere who preferred to stay anonymous. If you have other race info with HR data, I would love to see it. See how it matches up with the pace wizard. --Jimmy

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            I understand that Hadd says that about 193+ MHR in those posts that have been compiled. You probably can't go wrong following his advice for your first marathon coming up. Team Oregon Pace calculator gives you 187bpm for the marathon (about 86%). Who is right? You will find that out as you go along.The way I see it , if you are really able to do 187, and if you are using a HR monitor to govern your race, and you try to average 177, you can't go wrong. If that's your plan, I recommend sticking with it. If you decide to make a pace plan, then wear your HRM anyway just to record what happens as you execute your pace plan. Mainly, my discussion with you is to share what I'm thinking when I see your info. If your 5k pace effort matches mine and the Team Oregon Pace Wizard's, and I have 20 bpm less than you for an MHR, and if your other %MHR efforts for other distances also match mine and the calculator, then I don't know why your MRP % effort wouldn't match mine (87%) or the calculator. Team Oregon Pace Wizard gives me a 171 (86%) based on my 199 MHR, I averaged 173 (87%) at Sugarloaf (all splits averaged in). My MHR could be a few beats higher, 199 is the highest I've seen. I did Hadd for my first marathon (4:14). I thought it was a fun, worthy experiment. I didn't do well at the marathon for what could have been a variety of reasons, which could have included that the Hadd program doesn't work, or it could have been about 5 other reasons, the main one being that it was my first marathon and I had only been running a year and a half. Even though indicators said I could go much faster, I couldn't that day. I'll never know why really, I can only speculate (it was the pancakes!!!). All my other race times got a lot better, due to the volume of aerobic miles. It was always in the back of my mind that Hadd is basically some anonymous guy who posted on the Letsrun Message Board. Whereas Maffetone, Parker, Pfitzinger, Galloway, Higdon and Daniels are all out in the open, and we know their experience, we don't really know Hadd's. we have no clue if he was a shmo like me, just playing around with stats and numbers and who experimented on one guy, or a guy just making it all up, or some big name coach somewhere who preferred to stay anonymous. If you have other race info with HR data, I would love to see it. See how it matches up with the pace wizard. --Jimmy
            I don't have a pace goal for this first marathon. My goal is (i) not to bonk (too much), and (ii) to learn, so I want to use my HR monitor to govern my race. Assuming my HRavg for the marathon would end up in the 170-175 range, I have a plan for this course. Now if I am capable of a higher HRavg, I'd like to figure that out beforehand so I do not sell myself short. Hadd has worked great for my wife so far in her Boston training, but I do not think it was necessarily Hadd, but just that it she followed a program that slowed her down some and allowed her to build miles without breaking her down. I hardly have any race data with heart rate, since I have not raced much. Here's all I've got... 3/25/07, 5k, 22:18 (7:12 pace), 204 HRavg, 213 HRmax 5/5/07, 10k, 47:20 (7:37 pace), 204 HRavg, 217 HRmax 11/22/07, 10k, 48:44 (7:51 pace), 198 HRavg, 212 HRmax (I did not really give my 100% effort here)
              if you stick with the Hadd, you won't be selling yourself short, even if you have a little more HR room. The first marathon isn't easy, and a slower start will help in the end. Best to be conservative. Then if you do more marathons, you'll get a little bolder each time as you become a budding aerobigod. No pancakes an hour before the race!!! 3-4 hours, okay. Good point about your wife. In Parker's training (HRT for the Compleat Idiot), he's seen that just slowing people down on recovery days below 70% makes a huge difference. Not only does it work fat-burning fibers, but it rests you so you can get more out of the hard days. Thanks for the discussion. Keep going! --Jimmy

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              Master of Inconsistency

                Yesterday I ran 6.2 at Maf-7 recovery,and needed it as me legs were fairly sore. Today 27F Sunny & less windy than the last few days RHR=52 a few beats high AHR=145 Max=175 12 Miles General aerobic, first 4 miles at under Maf ,mid 4 in the 140's next 3 in the 150's Had to push the last mile to a little over 8 pace in order to get under 2 hours Tongue HR was slightly elevated from the start and my legs ached a bit until I got into a rhythm A good workout ,not as easy as I thought it'd be,but at least I'm not fatigued. I'm not sure if I'm fully recovered after Mondays Tempo. The experiment continues, Greg

                Ain't  Wastin' Time No More !

                  ********************end quote******************* Here are a few articles about predicting pace: PICK YOUR PERFECT MARATHON PACE Yasso 800's McMilllan on Predicting MRP End of book 2! --Jimmy
                  Okay- here are my indicators to date... 1. Last night's MAF test on the treadmill: 9:05 MAF pace, which projects to a 3:34 marathon. Note I am faster on the treadmill than outdoor runs at the same HR. 2. Last night's MAF test on the treadmill (last 5 miles only, dropping the first faster mile): 9:12 MAF pace, which projects to a 3:36 marathon. Note I am faster on the treadmill than outdoor runs at the same HR. 3. Hadd Test on Feb 3, outdoor track: My 170 HR indicator interval was an 8:42 pace, which projects to a 3:48 marathon. 4. McMillan calculator based on my best 10k (15 months ago) projects a 3:39 marathon 5. McMillan calculator based on my most recent 10k (3 months ago) projects a 3:48 marathon (this 10k was not a full effort, though). 6. McMillan calculator based on my best 5k (11 months ago) projects a 3:37 marathon. 7. McMillan calculator based on my most recent 5k (4 months ago) projects a 3:46 marathon. So, my range is from 3:34 to 3:48, with a median of 3:41. If I throw the above 7 projections in a pot and average them, I get 3:40 for an average projection. Based on all of this, I was going use a marathon goal time for training pace purposes as 3:40 (even if this is a little fast for me now, maybe this will be more realistic with another 7 weeks of sharpening). Any comments or suggestions? Should I be more conservative and use the slower indicators of 3:48?
                    Today's 20 miler, 70 for the week. 9:37 ave pace 62º/57% humid tm 1% with hills Tough one today, mentally. Just kept saying to myself :"Do NOT hit the STOP button." These kind of runs are more fruitful than the easy ones. 12:00 121 9:49 129 9:40 136 9:40 138 9:40 139 .17 hill @ 2.0, .20 @ 2.0 9:40 145 .17 hill @ 3.0, .20 @ 2.0 9:40 146 .17 hill @ 4.0, .20 @ 2.0 9:40 146 .17 hill @ 2.0, .20 @ 2.0 9:40 148 .17 hill @ 3.0, .20 @ 2.0 9:40 150 .17 hill @ 4.0, .20 @ 2.0 9:40 149 .17 hill @ 2.0, .20 @ 2.0 9:40 152 .17 hill @ 3.0, .20 @ 2.0 9:40 154 .17 hill @ 4.0, .20 @ 2.0 9:40 153 .17 hill @ 2.0, .20 @ 2.0 9:40 155 .17 hill @ 3.0, .20 @ 2.0 9:34 159 .17 hill @ 4.0, .20 @ 2.0 9:31 159 .17 hill @ 2.0, .20 @ 2.0 9:25 164 .17 hill @ 3.0, .20 @ 2.0 9:22 166 .17 hill @ 4.0, .20 @ 2.0 9:14 167 17 hill @ 2.0, .20 @ 2.0 --Jimmy p.s. WARNING: Even though I use Pfitzinger's zone for long runs, I warn you against it. This zone that tops out at 78% HRR is from ADVANCED Marathoning by Pfitzinger. It is for ADVANCED runners. It is designed for runners with at least a 55 mile per week base. Using the 70-78% HRR zone in the last 1/4 of a run is very hard on the body. It is used to teach running hard while tired in the end of a MARATHON. I suggest you stay away from them until you have a base of 55-60 miles at least. Take it or leave it. Move ahead at own risk.

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                      Okay- here are my indicators to date... 1. Last night's MAF test on the treadmill: 9:05 MAF pace, which projects to a 3:34 marathon. Note I am faster on the treadmill than outdoor runs at the same HR. 2. Last night's MAF test on the treadmill (last 5 miles only, dropping the first faster mile): 9:12 MAF pace, which projects to a 3:36 marathon. Note I am faster on the treadmill than outdoor runs at the same HR. 3. Hadd Test on Feb 3, outdoor track: My 170 HR indicator interval was an 8:42 pace, which projects to a 3:48 marathon. 4. McMillan calculator based on my best 10k (15 months ago) projects a 3:39 marathon 5. McMillan calculator based on my most recent 10k (3 months ago) projects a 3:48 marathon (this 10k was not a full effort, though). 6. McMillan calculator based on my best 5k (11 months ago) projects a 3:37 marathon. 7. McMillan calculator based on my most recent 5k (4 months ago) projects a 3:46 marathon. So, my range is from 3:34 to 3:48, with a median of 3:41. If I throw the above 7 projections in a pot and average them, I get 3:40 for an average projection. Based on all of this, I was going use a marathon goal time for training pace purposes as 3:40 (even if this is a little fast for me now, maybe this will be more realistic with another 7 weeks of sharpening). Any comments or suggestions? Should I be more conservative and use the slower indicators of 3:48?
                      All your indicators do point to a best possible marathon in the mid 3:30's. There are few more things you can do to help you. Marathon race pace tempo run. You can go at this two ways: 1)Use a HR zone of 78-85% MHR. Warmup for 2-4 miles, then run 10-14 miles at MRP pace. For example, based on my 199 bpm, my zone would be 155-170 bpm. Warmup to the 155 and hold that pace, averaging 170 in the last few miles (which means 172 is okay, as long as you are seeing 168). I find that these tempo runs can tell you how well you are doing. You are in the midst of training, and your legs are a bit tired, just like in the marathon. The ave. pace will give you a good idea of possible marathon pace. The tempos I've done in the past went to 87%, but found that the pace always came out 5-7 seconds ahead of the MRP I ran in the goal race. So I'm going to use 85% as a ceiling as an adjustment. 2) Try the same type of run, but use the pace for which you are training. Use the HRM to record what happens, not to govern. If your HR goes way above the 85% MHR, you might be training for too fast a pace. If way below, your looking good. Pfitzinger gives two of these tempos in his schedules. A few shorter ones (4-7 miles are okay, but the 10-14 milers can be taxing, so be careful, don't overdo them) Ultimately the only thing against you is that this is your first marathon, and the last 5-6 miles will expose where you are really at, aerobically and mentally. It takes most a few marathons to get it right. That McMillan number is very hard to hit--I haven't done it yet. Very close. Keep going! --JImmy

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                      Master of Inconsistency

                        Ran my 1st 20 miler today Sunny & 26F at the start 31at the end 20 miles ,3:13:58 , Pace 9:42 AHR = 153 Max = 174 RHR= 48 I was a little worried at the start of this run as I was hitting my Maf of 137 in the first mile and not going any faster then my usual Maf- 5 pace. I ran this as a progression run . 5 miles - between 135 and 145 5 miles between 145-155 5 at 155-165 Last 5 at 165 -175 , pretty much stayed at 169 for this 5 the 174 I did hit was on a uphill holding pace. A good 3 + miles of this run was over crusty ice and some snow ,this caused my Quads some bit of discomfort. When I was at the 19 and a quarter mark and still feeling good I began giggling a little hysterically,if someone would have seen me they would have called for a straight jacket. Big grin All in all I feel good but my legs are pretty trashed . Have good runs today everyone, Greg

                        Ain't  Wastin' Time No More !

                          Ran the Hyannis Half-Marathon today. MRP tempo run (10 of 15 miles total) After a 2-mile warm-up, and then the first 3 miles of the half at ave 142 BPM (MAF+1), I did the last 10 of the half in my marathon race pace tempo HR zone(the last 10 of the Half). My goal was to average 167-168 (a zone of 157-173 bpm). The course was perfect for it, as it was very hilly and very windy (Cape Cod). I dressed with extra layers to get my body heated up, mimicking hotter weather than the current 34º. Splits: 1) 9:07 124 Hyannis Half marathon 34º/40% humidity 2) 8:31 149 3) 8:28 153 MRP Tempo Ave HR 167 (79% HRR or 84%MHR) zone (72-83% HRR) Ave pace 7:58 4) 8:00 157 5) 7:54 162 6) 8:19 164 7) 7:55 163 8) 8:09 166 9) 7:56 169 10) 7:56 171 11) 7:41 171 12) 7:56 173 13) 7:55 173 .25) 1:54 173 This equated to a 3:28:30 marathon (McMillan calculator). What's interesting is that my last LT done a week ago was 7:29, which falls half way in between 15k and HM pace for 3:28:30. This is right on the nose. If i was to do a perfect marathon this week, 3:28:30 would be my absolute best. Still have 12 weeks to go. I'll take 3:28. It's not a PR, but I'll take it come marathon time. I adjusted my MRP tempo down a few beats from the way I used to do them. As I posted earlier, the MRP always used to come out 6-7 seconds per mile faster than I would utlimately achieve in the marathon. This feels more on the money and matches up with the LT run. I tried to average about 155-157 or so for the first mile, then try to maintain that same sense of pace. If you look at my splits, you'll see I maintained a very even pace. Notice how often I hit 7:54-7:57. the slow splits were big, long hills, and the speedy ones were big long downhills. That really helps in the marathon. These runs feel like 20+ milers when your done. They not only train you to handle marathon pace, but also trains your mind to keep pace even though you feel tired. I did 20 on Friday, so I was feeling a bit tired the last few miles. Well, that's my book on today's experiment. I'm not sure what place I came in, but the whole run was an experience in passing people. I started in the back, and just kept weaving and passing the whole time. Fun. Keep going! --Jimmy p.s. finished 572 of 1800 and 81 of 160 in age group. I was on the winning team today in the masters division at The Hyannis Half Marathon! team results

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                          lowgear1


                          Max McMaffelow Esq.

                            Greg, Jimmy, Mighty, mighty dog-gone good !!! Congrats!! I'm trying to comprehend; but it's beyond me, for sure. LG1
                            ♪ ♫ Hey, hey, we're Maf Monkees And people say we monkey around. ♪ ♫ (The Monkees)
                            Give me 12:59 in '09, please. I deserve it! (Maf of course)..No more teens! No more teens! (ME! ME! ME!)
                            ♪ ♫ I Thank The Lord For The Night Time...And I Thank The Lord For You ♪ ♫ (Neil Diamond)
                              Nice half Jimmy & 20-miler Greg. I did 17.4 miles on Saturday afternoon. I planned on 18 and this was my first long run where I did not try to stay under MAF. My recovery jog planned for Sunday would put me over 50 miles/week for the first time, but I was bitten (hopefully not too hard) by the injury bug. Backing up for a minute, I've complained on this forum a little about some tightness behind my left knee- maybe a month ago. When I pushed around with my fingers, the small area of pain was actually at the very top of my calf, not really the knee. I iced it for a few days and it went away. In the past month, I've felt it a little from time-to-time during runs. It was a little worse last weekend when I did 17, but I took a recovery day and and off day after that and felt fine on Tuesday. So, I was running Saturday and I felt the back of knee issue again towards the later miles. It was getting uncomfortable around mile 15.5, and it seemed like my left calf was tightening up. So, I stopped to do a brief light calf stretch. Well, that turned out to be a big mistake as the stretch caused my entire calf to lock up/cramp/spasm. I still had 2.5 miles to get to my car, and I had promised to take my kids somewhere that evening and did not have time to walk to the car and make it on time. So, I broke the rule about running through pain and did a limp-jog for another few miles until I was within 5-10 minutes walking time to my car. I had pain just walking around Saturday evening and most of Sunday, especially up and down stairs. The back of my knee swollen- not horribly, but if you feel the left knee versus the right there is definetely some swelling. My self diagnosis is some tendonitis/damage to the posterior cruciate ligament based on the area that it swollen. However, there really is no pain in the swollen area, but rather just at the top of my calf muscle (where this ligament connects to the lower leg?). I iced a lot yesterday, which seemed to help. I was able to do 20 minutes of elliptical pain free, but I had to crouch a little while on the elliptical to avoid the pain of fuilly straightening my left leg. From what I have read, the posterior cruciate ligament is typically damaged by a hyperextension. I don't know if I did that in the past month (stepping in a pothole or something) or if it a overuse/repeated impact issue. I guess it could also be damaged calf muscle issue, but I am not sure why the entire posterior cruciate ligament would be swollen if that was the case. However, if it was just the posterior cruciate ligament, I don't know why my entire calf locked up on me Saturday. I am going to do the ice/ibuprofin/light elliptical therapy for now and see what happens. I won't attempt to run again until I can walk, including up/down stairs, without pain. Back to my run- I wanted to keep my pace in the 9:30-10:30 range, figured my HR would be around the 150-165 range and would not let my HR get much above 170. I did not have an exact pace plan (i.e. breaking the run into quarters) since I was doing a big hill in the middle of the run. I ended up at a 10:04 pace for the run with an average HR of 161. http://trail.motionbased.com/trail/activity/5036823
                                Ace, Ouch. I once had something very similar. It wasn't the knee, but more like the top of the calf to the side nearish the knee. I rested a bit, then Gallow-trained for a few weeks and it was better. I kept up my mileage but took a walk break every 5 minutes for a minute. It kept the pain away. I kept building up the time between breaks and finally started running everything again. This exercise can really help with this: Click Do very, very, VERY slowly. I also got religious about warm-up and cooldown. P.S. Are you a calf stretcher? If so, you might consider not stretching them anymore. Can do some people more harm than good. --Jimmy

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