With a bit of discussion about LR's coming up, I thought it would be good to talk about pacing during the LR. I believe that we need to first build up our endurance by building the mileage and continuing to build the LR distance. This progression in miles should be in small increments. We often do medLR's several times per week before attempting the LR. For definition, Pfitz defines the LR as 17+ miles and medLR's ~10-16 miles. These runs are important for building mitochondria and capillaries in our muscles preparing us to run longer (not faster). We get stronger and are able to hold a pace for longer distances. These runs are to be done at a pace of goalMP+20% and finishing at goalMP+10%--per Pfitz. This is a good start. If you realy want to progress, though, add some intensity to these runs. First build up to the distance. Then add some faster miles at the end, or tempo in the middle, or even better tempo in the beginning and the end...This will really let you improve in the marathon race. It starts with putting the 'time on your feet'-meaning just make it through the distance. Then try the next run to be a Pfitz progression. It is important to practice pacing such that you are actually going a bit faster towards the end of the race-when you are more tired. This will reinforce your strength late in the marathon. By doing all medLR's as a 'mini-progression' or negative split, you will force this desired effect. Many runners 'go by feel'. They can inherently start slow enough to know that they will have enough left later on to be able to push it a little bit. I am not that smart and need specific goals and paces. As I'm getting more seasoned at this game, I am marginally better at 'by feel' running. My HR monitor takes all the guesswork out of it though. I know my MP HR and can use this information to guide me on sustained efforts at subMP or goalMP. It is easier to guide efforts by a HR number, especially when there is varied terrain. Who can equate paces over miles with hills-up or down? I can't. So, I offer this advice. First, run the LR slow enough to finish slightly faster. Then next time, run it faster-either for a portion near the end, or just for a little bit in the middle-but adding some intensity will help--a lot. And don't forget to run the medLR's the same way! (BTW-nice runs Lou and Bill. Still need work with the pacing Burgertimebill, but I'll take the overall pace. Make the end faster and the middle less hard and it will be better training for your body...you want to know that you have the strength to handle those last miles. You're both looking very strong right now...)

For those of us who are mathematically challenged, is there a calculator available to figure what your paces +/- percentages are?

Holly, here's how I do it. It's not hard. Assuming my Goal MP is 8:30: Change the minutes to seconds: 8 times 60 is 480. Add the seconds: 480 + 30 = 510. Therefore, 10% of 510 is 51. 8:30 plus 51 seconds = 9:21 (this is MP + 10%) Add another 51 seconds = 10:12 (this is MP + 20%) Bill

ilene- i'm in the same boat as you and will do one and only one 20miler prior to Boston--but I'll do a bunch of medLR's with tempo to help a little bit. It's not the best preparation but there's just not enough hours in the day to force the issue. I would not add intensity to the LR unless you've done the distance before once or twice.

Pfitz suggests doing intervals at 5K pace and lactate threshold runs at HM pace. So that is what I do. It also seems critical to get out and do several long races during the training period. No training run can duplicate the effort you will put into a race. I realize everybody is different and all I have is my one observation about me. So, none of this should be taken as seriously as one would a conclusion from an actual study. But for what it is worth in the last 12 months I dropped my marathon PR by 16 minutes, increased my weekly training miles, and managed to stay 100% injury free. I credit the injury free part to not worrying about pace except for runs specifically tied to speed.

congratulations on your excellent improvement! I do not believe in 5K RP intervals for marathon training-the speed is too fast for anything useful and risks injury. 10K RP is better. I also do not do many long races since I can't fit them into my schedule, but you are correct in stating that over- and under- distance racing will help prepare for the actual distance. (Not that a 50K is needed to prepare for the marathon, but 1/2M's are nice preparation and much better than 5K's or 5Milers...). Your improvement may have occurred for many different reasons, but I'd credit the increase in mileage first and foremost-along with steady training and no injury. Multipace training and periodization is critically important to racing but how each of us fits these together is an indivudual practice. There are many overlaps in training, however... I hope to meet you at a local race, since we are both in CT. I'll try to scan the intrepid race calander once I get to racing season in the fall. Best, Dale

Great discussion and insights here. I don't have much to add, but will second the SLOW long run pace advice wholeheartedly. I used to run all my long runs way too fast and sometimes still do that (when the group starts taking off---I hear ya Soundrunner). I try now to keep the pace at 60 to 90 seconds slower than marathon pace and work on fast finish runs as I get closer to the target race. The old 800 meter runner in me wants to burst off the starting line and it's so much better indeed to fly into the finish like Soundrunner. I ran many more medium long runs and more serial 20 milers during marathon training for Hartford this past summer. I felt tired after the long runs, but never trashed and quite recovered by the next day. That didn't used to be the case! My speed/tempo training is probably more Daniels inspired than Pfitz. I don't seem to do well with lots of track intervals and do much better with speed on the roads measured in time segments or no less than a mile if it's repeats day. As you say Twocat, we are all experiments of one and there are a variety of approaches. I am also a "by feel" runner as much as possible. The big key for me has been decreasing the mileage amount between my MLRs and LRs so that by the peak of training, I might run 15 milers in the middle of the week (when I can get up at 4 AM or I am not traveling---not easy with life in the way) and then a 20 mile LR with just a 5 mile difference between the runs. During this cycle pre-Boston, I am increasing the overall mileage a little bit, but maintaining the same general methodology. I am fortunate to have a monster base without a serious injury in several years. I think I paid the injury bank in my late twenties with many stress fractures, ITB issues and PF in both feet---scary to type that even. Thanks all for the advice thus far. I am always interested in the mixture of approaches. Twocat and Dale----I am just in Western, MA---so maybe I'll see you at a race or two this summer. CNY

I think I'm definitely running my MLRs (haven't got up to really LR) too fast. Coach sets most of my LRs as Zone 2 (aerobic) except for 2x20-25 minutes @ Zone 3 (just sub LT). Goal MP: 8:46 Approx. Z2 these days: 9:15 Approx. Z3 these days: 8:40 Goal + 10% 9:37 Goal +20% 10:30 I stack the two Z3 bits in the second hour of the run. Most of my LRs have averaged 9:10. No wonder I'm beat all. the. time. I was just blaming the mileage. (48 last week) Must Go Think and chat with Coach.

ilene- i'm in the same boat as you and will do one and only one 20miler prior to Boston--but I'll do a bunch of medLR's with tempo to help a little bit. It's not the best preparation but there's just not enough hours in the day to force the issue. I would not add intensity to the LR unless you've done the distance before once or twice.

Or you could hold off till next year and join Pro, LaT, Tnally , Cfli and moi at the water stop And invite MrsToce with or without you.