Running-Wizard

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When Fully Recovered...Isn't... (Read 42 times)

    Hey guys, so I am on week four of my new plan. The first two weeks were rough and my legs ached and were sore most of the time. I did the lowest suggested mileage and cut out the extra run (five runs vs. six) and finally by week three I was feeling pretty good. Legs still achey but not sore like they had been. I was running well but then because of a bad weather/flooded basement combo I missed my out and back. Not a huge deal but I think the extra day of rest was a factor in my long run being a bit on the fast side of things.

     

    I started week four feeling about the same, achey but okay and my runs so far have gone well. This morning I woke up for a 12.5 mile aerobic run. RI's said fully recovered. Started the run and could tell it would take me a bit to warm up, but it was okay...and then half mile in my calves just seized!!! it was terrible and horrible and hurt so bad. I stopped at a lighted corner and retied my shoes and massaged my calves for a moment. Started running again and pretty soon started thinking that this run wasn't going to happen. Almost turned around and went home, but pushed on and by mile four started feeling okay, although I was running REALLY SLOW. Did my loop without the extra side streets so that I ended up running just about ten and a half.

     

    I have noticed in the past that when the RI says "train don't strain" I need to really take it easy, but today it told me I was fully recovered! So does that mean that I had a bad running day but pushing through it and toughing it out is part of the training...not every run is going to feel good? Or should I have turned around and just rested today?? My calves feel pretty beat up right now, foam roller time is in my future Smile  Thankfully tomorrow is my rest day anyway, so I don't have to run again til Friday so hopefully plenty of time to recover.

     

    Thoughts??

    JML


      I wouldn't worry about it.  Sometimes.....you just have a bad day.  I have had the same experience where I start off feeling OK and the run goes south.  I have also had the experience were I start the run feeling less than stellar and I get stronger as the run progresses.  Since you are using the Recovery Indicators to eliminate overtraining as a potential cause, I would just chalk it up to a bad day and move on to the next run on Friday.

       2014 goals: run a bunch....race some.....repeat...


      Hungry

        RI's said fully recovered. Started the run and could tell it would take me a bit to warm up, but it was okay...and then half mile in my calves just seized!!! it was terrible and horrible and hurt so bad.

        Ditto what JML said, with one caveat. You said your calves "seized" and hurt, but you were able to recover and still run 10.5 miles ... Did you get actual cramps in your calves? I don't think the RI's would predict this or pick this up. I have a long history with leg cramps, and your description sounds like what I've experienced (from playing tennis, skiing, and most recently, after a long trail run through pock-marked frozen snow). When I get cramps in my calves, it is like my muscles are in knots, and they are trying to wriggle out of my skin! It is very painful!  I usually drop to the ground, unable to stand when this happens.

        Were you any less hydrated this morning than normal? Just a thought based on your symptoms. For me, leg cramps can diminish (e.g., after stopping and massaging for awhile, etc.) to the point where I can continue at a reduced effort, but the soreness will linger for quite a while. This sounds similar to your case. If so, hydration would be my only possible suggestion for both a cause and a preventive measure in the future.

        [Funny story: After my trail run in April, I was in the parking lot by my car in my sweaty sweat pants. (It warmed up a lot during the run, and I lost more water through sweat than I realized.) No one was around, so I proceeded to remove my sweat pants for a "quick change" into something dry. That's when my calves cramped up hard, and I fell to the ground, writhing in pain . . .   In my underwear!!  It took me about 10 minutes of trying to relax and stretch before I was able to get up and finish changing.]

        2013: 2647.2 miles

        2014: Boston

          Yeah, I think what you are saying makes sense Subdood....probably a hydration issue. I don't drink enough (I know I know!!) and lately since I have been up so early to get these runs in, I have been drinking lots and lots of coffee...with no extra water. Going to buy a "fancy" cup so I can keep water with me during the day and hopefully remember to drink it Smile

           

          AND...your story is HILARIOUS!!! Terrible, but oh so funny!!!


          Hungry

            Yeah, I think what you are saying makes sense Subdood....probably a hydration issue. I don't drink enough (I know I know!!) and lately since I have been up so early to get these runs in, I have been drinking lots and lots of coffee...with no extra water. Going to buy a "fancy" cup so I can keep water with me during the day and hopefully remember to drink it Smile

             

            AND...your story is HILARIOUS!!! Terrible, but oh so funny!!!

            Oh good, I didn't want to sound preachy or overly obvious about the hydration thing. I just know that, in my case, I WILL get cramps if I don't drink enough.

            Yeah, while I lay there on the ground, writhing in pain in my underwear, several runners walked by. None of them even slowed down to ask what the hell was wrong with me! Which is probably just fine in light of the underwear situation . . .

            2013: 2647.2 miles

            2014: Boston

              Hey guys...so since Subdood gently pointed out that I was probably dehydrated I bought myself a shiney new water bottle and have kept my fridge stocked with fresh mint leaves to keep me drinking all day, haven't had an issue since.

               

              However, I am just not feeling this plan! Five weeks under my belt, and my RI's routinely say to take it easy, at least once and sometimes twice a week. I am struggling to get the mileage in and most of my runs I cut short by a half to full mile, so I am always in the lower range. Everyone says on here how the aerobic paces are so slow for them, but I can barely hit them, i really struggle to come close to the correct pace. My legs feel tired all of the time. I have not had one run where I can say I felt "loose, relaxed, strong"

               

              What do you guys think? I bit off more than I can chew? I was really hoping that after a strong 5K program I would be ready to go for this marathon plan. I entered everything accurately when I filled out the "application" page or whatever you call that....

               

              My RW goal time for the marathon is a 3:10, I already adjusted that to a 3:20 in my head...but I am wondering if that is even possible. Advice?

              JML


                You may want to consider dropping the lowest ranked run in your plan and trade it for a rest day after one of the harder efforts.  This might get you back to the place where you can comfortably handle the mileage on the other runs.

                 

                That being said, I also have troubles in the initial weeks of a plan.  Like you, I am currently struggling to ramp back up after my race in May after which I took a short break.  For me, the initial weeks of a RW cycle are always a bit rough and I pay close attention the recovery indicators and how I am feeling to adjust accordingly.    Example:  I ran 13.1 for my long run on Saturday and was supposed to run my O+B yesterday (scheduling reversed from normal RW convention due to timing conflicts).   I awoke yesterday on short sleep and found that I had an elevated HR which tripped the RI to the first level.  I still did the O+B but I reduced the mileage and only did a few miles at tempo with the rest of the miles at a comfortable pace.  I awoke today and the RI is back to normal.

                 

                I think that you may find that you will start to feel stronger in a few weeks after this initial rough patch.  This has been my pattern during my lat two RW cycles.  I think that it is key to use the RIs and do what you can handle at this phase.  Given time and proper management of your health, you will get fitter and your body will acclimate to the training stress.

                 2014 goals: run a bunch....race some.....repeat...

                northernman


                Fight The Future

                  One thing I notice from your log is that you are running significantly more per week over the last month or so than you have previously for a year or two. With this big a ramp up in mileage, it might be a good idea to cut back one week out of 3 or 4. Either that, or slow down even more, to let your body adapt.

                    Hey Christirei! Sorry you're not feeling it. Know the feeling of struggling through regular old aerobic runs and wondering what the heck is wrong with you. JML gave some good advice, it's what I'd do Smile I would stay at the mileage level you're at for a few weeks, until I felt comfortable. Since you recently switched from a 5-day to a 6-day schedule, it might be good to drop back down to the schedule you're already comfortable with. That way you're not changing too many things at once.

                     

                    As for the goal race time...hmmm, I wish there were some way to erase that information from our brains, because dwelling on it accomplishes absolutely nothing, and yet it is very difficult not to dwell on it when it's an aggressive, impressive number and you're doing all this hard work all the time. I wish there were an option to reveal the goal time later in the training cycle. The only thing that worked for me (sort of) whenever I got into an OMG MUST RUN FAST TIME mindset was to tell myself the following: 1) all I can do is the best I can in training, and the best I can on race day. Plenty of factors can ruin a race that are totally beyond my control; 2) there will be plenty of opportunities to hit that time, if I don't manage it this time around; 3) om

                     

                    Sorry, I know that isn't really what you asked - you wanted concrete advice re: adjusting your time goal. It might be too early in your training cycle to think about a true goal time. Everything I've read says that tune-up races are the best predictors of racing performance, so any number we have in our heads up til the tune-up race is really just kind of random, even if it does come from Running Wizard.

                     

                    tl;dr hopefully I don't come across as preachy or obvious, as SubDood said above.

                    JML


                       

                      Sorry, I know that isn't really what you asked - you wanted concrete advice re: adjusting your time goal. It might be too early in your training cycle to think about a true goal time. Everything I've read says that tune-up races are the best predictors of racing performance, so any number we have in our heads up til the tune-up race is really just kind of random, even if it does come from Running Wizard.

                       

                       

                       

                      +1 on this.  At this stage of training, I find the RW predicted race time interesting but do not put much stock in it.  My real estimate of race performance is formed during the final stages of training.  During my first RW cycle for a HM, I ended up within 8 seconds of the RW predicted pace which turned out to be correlate well with my fitness on race day.  For my last 5K cycle, my performance in the time trials told me that I was fitter than the RW predicted estimate indicated, and I ended up 'beating' the plan by a good margin.  My philosophy is to focus on putting in good training while managing recovery and to see where it takes me at the end of the training.

                       2014 goals: run a bunch....race some.....repeat...

                        Thanks guys! I hadn't really thought about dropping my sixth ranked run, it is just a super easy recovery jog the day after my long runs, but maybe those four or five miles would give my legs enough of a break to feel normal again. I just checked my plan and no I am not in the first five weeks...I am starting week SEVEN! I only have three (maybe four) weeks of aerobic building left...definitely thought i would be feeling stronger by now.

                         

                        JML - I have been getting the poor RI so consistently that I have just been cutting runs short, but I like how you changed up your out and back, that is a good idea and I will try to do some of that instead of just running a mile less but trying to keep pace the same, good advice!

                         

                        Northernman - I completed a fifteen week 5K training plan this winter and starting in April was either tapering, or following a ROUGH race week/non race week schedule, and my miles were LOW!! I talked with Nobby a tiny bit about my concern from having such low mileage to really high and I have been trying to follow his advice...but it's not working for me,  I think I should have been much more gradual the first three weeks, but I was impatient to run the distance and ultimately of course...nail this marathon Smile

                         

                        I think you guys are right about goal time, I agree that it would be great if that time was blank until after our first time trial!! and I think with the marathon especially, some amazing goal isn't going to be healthy for me....waiting til the first time trial and setting a goal time based from that is the smartest way to go, now to just erase said goal time from my memory....    Smile

                          Update :

                           

                          JML I have had two days in a row with poor RI's due to lack of sleep (children up at night, horrible thunderstorms...etc) so this morning I had a ten mile out and back, and I remembered how you approached yours, did the same thing. Took a mile to warm up, two miles to get to the right pace, five miles at tempo pace, then two miles to cool down...and i felt great the whole run, ran well, and don't feel trashed afterwards! Thanks!!

                          JML


                            Christirei -

                             

                            Glad that it worked for you.  I think that this approach is better than forcing the pace to adhere exactly to the plan and blowing up half way through the workout.  I wish I could say that I successfully took my own advice yesterday during my 11 mile aerobic run.    I ran the first 5 with my running group and did not pay attention to my effort level.  At the end of 5, I realized that I was running the suggested pace but the effort level was way too high due to weather conditions (heat and oppressive humidity).    I probably needed to run about 45 seconds per mile slower to hit the right effort level for the run.

                             

                            As I was contemplating my error in pacing and slowing down to try to lower by heartrate and effort level, the torrential rain rolled in.  I took this as an omen to cut it short and live to fight another day.

                             2014 goals: run a bunch....race some.....repeat...

                              You guys are going to love this. So I have been running in Newton's since last fall and I really have enjoyed them. I was wearing the Newton Gravity which is pretty much a transition shoe that it is still quite firm and has some cushioning in your heel as you work to change your stride. I was doing well in them. Right at the end of my 5K plan that I completed this winter I needed some new shoes and went to my LRS to pick up another pair, they didn't have my size and contacted another one of their stores across town to send one over to me. Well, it didn't fit right, so they did it again. The second pair seemed right and I took them home to use on my treadmill a few weeks. They felt fine. My mileage was still pretty low then. They felt lightweight, the color scheme was different...but I just figured, new model year and didn't give it another thought

                               

                              Then I started this marathon plan and my legs have been hurting ever since!! That is why I started this whole thread, things just didn't seem right and I couldn't figure out why I was taking so long to get adjusted to this plan. My calves have been hurting as well. So this weekend I was like, this is it....it must be my shoes and I went to my LRS to pick up another pair. I took in all of my Newtons so that they could look at my wear pattern and all of that jazz

                               

                              Turns out, in all of the shipping sizes back and forth...they gave me the wrong shoe! I have been wearing the Distance by Newton instead, which is a very lightweight shoe, small heel/toe drop and very flexible. I was completely not ready for it!! And it really does help explain why my legs have been hurting so much.

                               

                              Can't believe I have been running in them for two months and didn't have a clue, but thankfully am back in a shoe with more of the support that I need and hopefully my legs will be back to feeling normal soon!!!

                                Well that explains a lot! Glad you figured that out, and really hope the right shoes will help you feel better.

                                 

                                You guys are going to love this. So I have been running in Newton's since last fall and I really have enjoyed them. I was wearing the Newton Gravity which is pretty much a transition shoe that it is still quite firm and has some cushioning in your heel as you work to change your stride. I was doing well in them. Right at the end of my 5K plan that I completed this winter I needed some new shoes and went to my LRS to pick up another pair, they didn't have my size and contacted another one of their stores across town to send one over to me. Well, it didn't fit right, so they did it again. The second pair seemed right and I took them home to use on my treadmill a few weeks. They felt fine. My mileage was still pretty low then. They felt lightweight, the color scheme was different...but I just figured, new model year and didn't give it another thought

                                 

                                Then I started this marathon plan and my legs have been hurting ever since!! That is why I started this whole thread, things just didn't seem right and I couldn't figure out why I was taking so long to get adjusted to this plan. My calves have been hurting as well. So this weekend I was like, this is it....it must be my shoes and I went to my LRS to pick up another pair. I took in all of my Newtons so that they could look at my wear pattern and all of that jazz

                                 

                                Turns out, in all of the shipping sizes back and forth...they gave me the wrong shoe! I have been wearing the Distance by Newton instead, which is a very lightweight shoe, small heel/toe drop and very flexible. I was completely not ready for it!! And it really does help explain why my legs have been hurting so much.

                                 

                                Can't believe I have been running in them for two months and didn't have a clue, but thankfully am back in a shoe with more of the support that I need and hopefully my legs will be back to feeling normal soon!!!

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