Running-Wizard

how's it going? (Read 103 times)

    ..  I have been dealing with some very tired and sore legs recently and my RIs have been clear the whole time.  I am starting to think that the RIs indicate general systemic fatigue and that localized muscle / tendon pain does not trigger a warning unless it is so significant that it causes a rise in RHR or a loss of sleep.

    I tend to agree. Since I do a lot of hills (sometimes mountains), have done those for a number of years, and am late 60s, I listen to my body before a computer index that doesn't have anything about my legs in it. I know in the past when I've overdone things, it takes awhile to recover, so I try to stay under that line. But I also notice that my recoveries are a lot faster than they used to be. (I also forget to enter the data more than I remember, so it seldom tells me anything.)

     

    I *thought* (could be wrong) that Nobby may have said something about this is in the last few months (maybe as long ago as spring), but not sure.

    "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog
    perryw


      Yea I have not been doing the recovery indicators. When I first wake up I can feel if my heart rate is elevated or not. I can tell when I haven't slept well. And I am trying to lose weight... I have been sleeping fine and feel rested when I wake up, so I don't think they would show anything. The only time they have shown other than full speed ahead was when I slept less than seven hours for two nights in a row.  And in that case I start feeling crappy anyway and don't need the RI to tell me to back off.  Because of my size and tendency to get overuse injuries I do tend to err on the conservative side.

       

      I do weigh myself daily, and record it weekly, it's just taking my pulse before I get moving that is the hard part to remember.

        JML

         

        I am having similar experience with the RI's right now. Early in the plan my RI's were consistently fine even though my legs felt like they were being put through a shredder. it ended up being a bad pair of shoes, but it almost never showed up. I have been fine since then but my last week of hills my legs were TIRED. My first hill workout of my last hill week phase i went out and tried to warm up, and i could tell it just wasn't going to happen that day. i turned around and went home. The rest of the week went fine after that extra day off

         

        I am pretty much of the mind now that the RI's are great at telling me to take it easy when i otherwise might try to push through it, but for leg/muscle ache and pain, sometimes you just need to rest and the RI's aren't going to be able to help with that. Not that it is an excuse to miss a lot of runs ( i wasn't feeling my aerobic run this week but pushed through and was glad i did, i was tired and sore but i got it done) but we each know our body best and i think there are times, especially during a particularly tough phase of training, where a day off isn't a bad idea


        Boston Strong in 2014!

          I find the RI is particularly sensitive to amount of sleep, which I already know will affect performance, but sometimes the only way I can get a run in is to wake up very early. Today, for example, I only got 6 hours sleep so I could wake up early and run before an important morning meeting. My RI was low, but I had a PCR run scheduled and I will be going out of town tomorrow, so I really needed to get that run in today on a familiar course. I ran it as scheduled and felt strong, but then made sure that I took a nap in the afternoon so I hope I'm good.

           

          On other days, my RI is at the top, but I feel so sluggish that I either take a rest day or make the workout shorter or slower.

           

          So like many of you, I tend to pay more attention to how I am feeling and how my running fits in with the rest of the demands in my life than to the RIs.

          2014 goals

          2000 miles; 5k < 24:30; HM < 1:56Century Bike Ride

           

          Upcoming:

          NYC Half Marathon 3/16Boston Marathon 4/21

          Philliefan33


            It's nice to see that this discussion on the RI's tends to agree with my experience. The RI is interesting to watch, but when I've had to make adjustments to my runs (shorten them, do a different type, or take a rest day) it's been due to the soreness in my legs.

            Future Races:

            5/4/14:  Bucks County Ten Miler

            northernman


            Fight The Future

              I will, of course, defer to Nobby or anyone else who knows this stuff. I don't claim to know the physiology or science behind it. But I'm guessing there are adaptations that take place with these types of workouts that add significant speed to your already established endurance base. Maybe you start activating different energy systems, or maybe something else is going on.  I know that you and I finished Twin Cities within about 30 seconds of each other last fall. After the RW plan, I took 12 minutes off that time at Grandma's in June. I think it may be that the sharpening that occurs in these workouts is what allows you to run at a faster marathon pace at [what feels like] the same level of effort.

              I looked back at your last 3 marathon finishes, and you are very steady in the 3:21 to 3:27 range. It will be interesting to see if the RW plan improves upon those times.

               

              (Continuing our discussion from the other sticky thread, as this starts to go off topic....)

              I agree, but it will be hard to pin the blame of a bad outcome on RW. Actually, not counting my last marathon, which I think was a significantly harder course, my previous 7 marathons had all been improving by about 4 - 8 minutes each time. At a certain point, though, I think there is no more improvement possible (or else, we would all be running 2 hour marathons after a while.) At age 55, I'm pretty certain that I'm nearing the apogee, if not already past it. For my previous two races, I'd been using Tinman training, which is also mostly Lydiard based and very intense. So if I bomb out in October, don't blame RW - blame senescence

              Of course, the weather is also a major factor. You remember how nice and cold it was last year?

              In any case, I'm certainly enjoying the RW plan, and glad to not be injured anymore.

               

              Today was my first try of the 100/100's. Due to the weather, I ran on an indoor track. Could in no way reach the prescribed paces, but definitely exceeded the recommended heart rates, so I think I put in sufficient effort. I was actually running around mid 170's heart rate, which should be above my theoretical max HR, while the plan called for mid 160's HR. Given the weather, I may stay indoors all week.


              Hungry

                 

                I agree, but it will be hard to pin the blame of a bad outcome on RW. Actually, not counting my last marathon, which I think was a significantly harder course, my previous 7 marathons had all been improving by about 4 - 8 minutes each time. At a certain point, though, I think there is no more improvement possible (or else, we would all be running 2 hour marathons after a while.) At age 55, I'm pretty certain that I'm nearing the apogee, if not already past it. For my previous two races, I'd been using Tinman training, which is also mostly Lydiard based and very intense. So if I bomb out in October, don't blame RW - blame senescence

                Of course, the weather is also a major factor. You remember how nice and cold it was last year?

                In any case, I'm certainly enjoying the RW plan, and glad to not be injured anymore.

                 

                Today was my first try of the 100/100's. Due to the weather, I ran on an indoor track. Could in no way reach the prescribed paces, but definitely exceeded the recommended heart rates, so I think I put in sufficient effort. I was actually running around mid 170's heart rate, which should be above my theoretical max HR, while the plan called for mid 160's HR. Given the weather, I may stay indoors all week.

                Good job on the 100/100's! I'm not familiar with Tinman, but if it is also Lydiard-based, then maybe you are correct about reaching an apogee of sorts -- one can't expect to improve dramatically time after time, forever. I definitely agree about the weather being a huge factor. If current weather conditions persist, it would be a challenge just to finish. (It is currently about 95F in Minnesota. And humid. And I think it's supposed to stay this way for a while.  I may consider moving it inside the reset of this week.)

                2013: 2647.2 miles

                2014: Boston


                Hungry

                  In other news, I just booked a hotel room in Boston in April. I am so psyched!! Big grin

                  2013: 2647.2 miles

                  2014: Boston

                    oh wow Subdood!!! that is so cool!!!

                     

                    We took our kids to the zoo in Omaha yesterday and had a great day, unfortunately my legs were trashed this morning so I abandoned my run halfway through it. hopefully the easy run today will help me to nail my interval set tomorrow!

                    northernman


                    Fight The Future

                      Good idea, Christerei, important not to overdo it. I was just reading this article on the idea that it's better not to be over stressing yourself for optimal training. You probably did get some aerobic workout from zoo strides with the kids also.

                       

                      Subdood, very exciting! Boston was intense this year, but generally a good experience. Next year should be memorable. I found the course to be not as beautiful as Twin cities and more hilly, but there is something special about the pride of everybody in the cities there about their race. I'm planning on going again next spring. Wasn't going to reserve a hotel until September, though. Did you find any deals? Are you staying right downtown?

                      perryw


                        Well, I'm still running this week.  My knees are still in a little pain, but I think the new shoes, stretches, exercises, icing, and Cho-Pat straps are helping.

                         

                        I am working noon - nine this week, instead of my usual 7 - 4 shift.  I normally hate it and have an all day headache by the last day.  I especially hate it because I have to wake up at 5:40 on Saturday to meet my running group.  But the weather man said this is the hottest week of the year, so my morning runs will be in the 70s with killer humidity (69 dew point...), instead of the 90s in the afternoon. Even the cat encouraged me to get up by climbing under the bed spread and pawing at me before 7 this morning... she's used to me being up at 5:20 Clown

                         

                        If I do 5 runs this week I should make it to 100 miles for the month, the second month in a row.  I was planning on doing just 4, but that magical number is calling.


                        Hungry


                          Subdood, very exciting! Boston was intense this year, but generally a good experience. Next year should be memorable. I found the course to be not as beautiful as Twin cities and more hilly, but there is something special about the pride of everybody in the cities there about their race. I'm planning on going again next spring. Wasn't going to reserve a hotel until September, though. Did you find any deals? Are you staying right downtown?

                          northernman: I'm very excited about it! I hope to see you there -- I'm traveling by myself, so it'd be great to meet up beforehand and celebrate afterwards. I didn't find any special deals on rooms. I actually goofed up after looking at a website for "Marathon Tours." I mistakenly believed that the Boston Marathon was on April 14 rather than April 21, and their hotel reservation program showed no rooms available on the 12th and 13th. I started to panic and sent them an e-mail asking what my options were ... They replied right away and straightened me out on the dates. So I figured I might as well call them and go ahead and reserve a place. I am staying at the Liberty Hotel, about a mile north of the finish area, so it's downtown. It looks trendy and cool (it used to be a jail/prison, so it has a certain theme).

                          My plan is to "loosely" follow my RW 5K training plan, but still run a bunch of races in September leading up to my goal race on Oct. 5, the Twin Cities 5K (the day before the marathon). After that, October will be a "recovery" month -- low miles, plenty of cross-training, biking and tennis, etc.  Then, in early November, I plan to start another RW Marathon training cycle to prepare for Boston.

                          Regarding the hills at Boston: looking at the elevation plot, it doesn't look that bad. At Twin Cities (my reference point), the hill after mile 20 or 21 (leading away from the river towards Summit Ave) is pretty big and steep. Then you continue up a slight gradual ascent until about mile 23 before you get a break.  Is Boston worse than that? Or is it tough because of all the DOWNHILL running you have to do leading up to the hills near the end?

                          Man, I'm freaking out already!

                          2013: 2647.2 miles

                          2014: Boston

                          northernman


                          Fight The Future

                            In truth, the hills were not very bad at all, it's just that they do slow you down a bit. I think that hill you mention leading away from the river is actually a little steeper and longer than I recall the hills being at Boston. Also, I was not impressed with the first three miles of downhill. I did not get quad soreness, as I've read some people do. In preparation, I did a fair number of lunges while holding hand weights (up to 2 sets of 30, about twice or three times a week). I suspect the eccentric exercises tuned up my quads to tolerate the pounding well. The other thing I did in training was a fair amount of hill running, but not bounding. I don't think you need to freak out at all - this will be a cakewalk for you.

                             

                            My race plan had been to follow the Marathon Nation Boston Pace Plan, because it looked reasonable, and matched my (unreasonable) goal of 7:30 per mile. However, the weather was unexpectedly warm, with direct sun in lots of the course, and there was a mild head wind. Most importantly, i feel that I had not tapered enough, and was already not very enthusiastic even at the start of the race. My splits were fairly even throughout, also suggesting that I started out lacking enthusiasm but maintaining mostly until the end. Next year I'll be sure to taper more, and psych myself up somehow. I believe the mood will be emotional and that will either help or hurt. Although I finished 30 minutes or so before the bombs, because of a goof up on the subway, I ended up right back at the ending just after they went off, and it was traumatic and chaotic.

                             

                            Would be great to get together, if possible. Maybe we need a pre-run RW gathering!

                            northernman


                            Fight The Future

                              Well, I'm still running this week.  My knees are still in a little pain, but I think the new shoes, stretches, exercises, icing, and Cho-Pat straps are helping.

                               

                              I am working noon - nine this week, instead of my usual 7 - 4 shift.  I normally hate it and have an all day headache by the last day.  I especially hate it because I have to wake up at 5:40 on Saturday to meet my running group.  But the weather man said this is the hottest week of the year, so my morning runs will be in the 70s with killer humidity (69 dew point...), instead of the 90s in the afternoon. Even the cat encouraged me to get up by climbing under the bed spread and pawing at me before 7 this morning... she's used to me being up at 5:20 Clown

                               

                              If I do 5 runs this week I should make it to 100 miles for the month, the second month in a row.  I was planning on doing just 4, but that magical number is calling.

                              Great job, perry, you can do it. Just remember to slow the pace a bit with this humidity, and you'll be there no problem


                              Boston Strong in 2014!

                                In truth, the hills were not very bad at all, it's just that they do slow you down a bit. I think that hill you mention leading away from the river is actually a little steeper and longer than I recall the hills being at Boston. Also, I was not impressed with the first three miles of downhill. I did not get quad soreness, as I've read some people do. In preparation, I did a fair number of lunges while holding hand weights (up to 2 sets of 30, about twice or three times a week). I suspect the eccentric exercises tuned up my quads to tolerate the pounding well. The other thing I did in training was a fair amount of hill running, but not bounding. I don't think you need to freak out at all - this will be a cakewalk for you.

                                 

                                 

                                I also thought the hills at Boston were not terrible, but do slow you down. I had followed a RW training plan and did not have any problem with the first downhill miles. The Newton hills slowed me down, but I was able to recover and was able to pick up my pace in the final miles. What you need to expect is that there is virtually no flat stretch on the entire route. It is all is all either slightly up and down or noticeably up and down.

                                 

                                I have my room "booked" for 2014-- I will be staying with family in Concord, MA so that is all taken care of. I already have a guaranteed entry because I was unable to complete the course this year (stopped at mile 25.5), although I would qualify again based on my projected time. Now all I have to do is finish the NYC marathon in November, rest up a bit, and then train again!

                                2014 goals

                                2000 miles; 5k < 24:30; HM < 1:56Century Bike Ride

                                 

                                Upcoming:

                                NYC Half Marathon 3/16Boston Marathon 4/21