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Need Help with one piece to my training plan (Read 30 times)

FreeSoul87


Runs4Sanity

    Warning: Long

    I am hoping that I will start training for my first ultra-marathon next Spring. I've done my own training plans for my half marathons, marathon/s and they've done me well but this one has me vexed for one reason - hills. The majority of my runs are pretty dang flat compared to 99% of your ultra races, I mean freaking flat. I live in Southern Indiana (blah) and the closest trails with hills is John James Audubon State Park, I've ran a 3-4 mile loop out there and my runs have ranged from 700-950 feet in elevation gain on that loop so I figure it would be a great place to train for all those hills and crazy elevation you find in ultras. My problem is I have no idea where to place it in my weekly plan, this park sucks in that it only opens at 7 AM (my morning runs have to be done and me walking back into the house by 7:30 AM) and closes at dusk which isn't bad during Spring to Fall as daylight will last until 7-8 PM while right now it is dark by 5 PM and I wouldn't be able to get there until 5 PM on the weekdays. My best option would be the weekend but my LR is on the weekend (normally on Sunday). One crazy thought I had was to use the rest of 2015 to build my LR up to where I am pretty much running my long runs out there on those trails, or hit this loop after my long run.

    I don't know what to do, I know training on these trails at least once a week will help me tremendously but I am not sure how to incorporate it into my weekly plan without negatively affecting my LR.

    Or would it benefit me just the same if I were to go and hike a couple loops on this trail after my long run and a couple times throughout the week? My 3 1/2 year old LOVES  hiking and really enjoys these trails, we go a little slower even when he runs, as he still sometimes trips over roots and stuff, but he's getting really good fast.

    *Do It For Yourself, Do It Because They Said It Was Impossible, Do It Because They Said You Were Incapable*

    PRs

    5k - 24:15 (7:49 min/mile pace) 

    10k - 51:47 (8:16 min/mile pace)

    15k -1:18:09 (8:24 min/mile pace)

    13.1 - 1:53:12 (8:39 min/mile pace)

     26:2 - 4:14:55 (9:44 min/mile)

    jmctav23


    2/3rds training

      call me crazy but i'd say your best viable option is to do your long run on those hilly trails.  Sure it will take longer due to the hills but if you're already setting aside the time you might as well do it there.  What distance Ultra are you shooting for?  One major benefit if you have a hilly 4 mile loop is that you really don't have to carry anything since you pass by the car presumably every 4 miles so you can use it as a de facto aid station and maybe just carry a light handheld bottle of water on each loop.  The only real negatives are that it can get monotonous running a 4 mile loop for 20 miles and it can get really tempting to cut the long run 4 miles short by not going out for that last lap if you feel spent.

      FreeSoul87


      Runs4Sanity

        call me crazy but i'd say your best viable option is to do your long run on those hilly trails.  Sure it will take longer due to the hills but if you're already setting aside the time you might as well do it there.  What distance Ultra are you shooting for?  One major benefit if you have a hilly 4 mile loop is that you really don't have to carry anything since you pass by the car presumably every 4 miles so you can use it as a de facto aid station and maybe just carry a light handheld bottle of water on each loop.  The only real negatives are that it can get monotonous running a 4 mile loop for 20 miles and it can get really tempting to cut the long run 4 miles short by not going out for that last lap if you feel spent.

         

        Very true. It would also probably force me to walk/hike the hills, and if not all my long runs, at least I could maybe do my long run out there every 3 weeks. I would definitely be a stronger runner on hills, that's for sure.

        Now call me crazy, I am shooting for either the Mark Twain Endurance 50 Miler held in September or the OPFS5050 in Indiana held in November. Both have the same elevation gain for their 50 miler (5,000 feet), and they are both relatively close to me (less than 3 hours drive)..

        *Do It For Yourself, Do It Because They Said It Was Impossible, Do It Because They Said You Were Incapable*

        PRs

        5k - 24:15 (7:49 min/mile pace) 

        10k - 51:47 (8:16 min/mile pace)

        15k -1:18:09 (8:24 min/mile pace)

        13.1 - 1:53:12 (8:39 min/mile pace)

         26:2 - 4:14:55 (9:44 min/mile)

        wcrunner2


        Are we there, yet?

           

          Very true. It would also probably force me to walk/hike the hills, and if not all my long runs, at least I could maybe do my long run out there every 3 weeks. I would definitely be a stronger runner on hills, that's for sure.

          Now call me crazy, I am shooting for either the Mark Twain Endurance 50 Miler held in September or the OPFS5050 in Indiana held in November. Both have the same elevation gain for their 50 miler (5,000 feet), and they are both relatively close to me (less than 3 hours drive)..

           

          If you're looking for a 50M race in November not too far away, have you considered the Tunnel Hill 100/50 in Southern Illinois? Not much in the way of hills, but runs through some beautiful country in the Shawnee National Forest.

           2024 Races:

                03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles

                05/11 - D3 50K
                05/25 - What the Duck 12-Hour

                06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour.

           

           

               

          FreeSoul87


          Runs4Sanity

             

            If you're looking for a 50M race in November not too far away, have you considered the Tunnel Hill 100/50 in Southern Illinois? Not much in the way of hills, but runs through some beautiful country in the Shawnee National Forest.

             

            I've thought about it, not sure if it is saying only 600' of elevation gain for the 100 miler but I'd rather take on some challenging hills as it will encourage me to hike and not try to run it all. Plus I want DH and my son there for my first, but DH hates Illinois, and I am not very fond of that state either.

            Plus, I've already got my heart/sights set on either of the two I mentioned Smile

            *Do It For Yourself, Do It Because They Said It Was Impossible, Do It Because They Said You Were Incapable*

            PRs

            5k - 24:15 (7:49 min/mile pace) 

            10k - 51:47 (8:16 min/mile pace)

            15k -1:18:09 (8:24 min/mile pace)

            13.1 - 1:53:12 (8:39 min/mile pace)

             26:2 - 4:14:55 (9:44 min/mile)

            FTYC


            Faster Than Your Couch!

              I agree with what jmc said. Do your long run on the hills. It will take you several hours to get in a decent distance, but if that's what the ultra course will look like, it's your best option. In my opinion, there's no point in doing the long run and the hills separately.

               

              I also think the car-aid-station is your best bet. Maybe reverse the direction of the loop every other loop, or do 2 loops one way, one loop the other way, etc., just to mix it up. Put some treats in your food bin that you allow yourself to have if you have finished a certain distance, or to take along only on the 4th, 5th, or 6th loop. Find tricks to keep you going (it doesn't necessarily have to go as far as depositing your car keys halfway around the loop to force yourself to do another loop... ).

               

              It is very hard to combine ultra training with family and kids. While on the roads and flat, non-technical trails you can click down the miles quickly, the long distances on hills and technical, difficult trails can become quite tedious. I always catch myself wishing I could just quit the long run early and spend the time with my kids instead.

              It is also difficult to find someone to take care of the kids for the 5-7 hours that you're out there running, AND then when you get home all tired, take care of the kids yourself.

              Good luck, and have fun in the hills!

              Run for fun.

              wcrunner2


              Are we there, yet?

                 

                I've thought about it, not sure if it is saying only 600' of elevation gain for the 100 miler but I'd rather take on some challenging hills as it will encourage me to hike and not try to run it all. Plus I want DH and my son there for my first, but DH hates Illinois, and I am not very fond of that state either.

                Plus, I've already got my heart/sights set on either of the two I mentioned Smile

                 

                I'm not particularly fond of Illinois either having grown up in the Chicago suburbs, but I have a lot of great memories of visiting my grandparents in Southern Illinois in the summer and taking in all the state parks and other sites in the area. I believe the course is actually a rails to trails and I expect the 600+ feet refers to maximum elevation, not vertical gain. I doubt I'll make it in 2016, but I sort of have my eye on the LBL races in March.

                 2024 Races:

                      03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles

                      05/11 - D3 50K
                      05/25 - What the Duck 12-Hour

                      06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour.

                 

                 

                     

                FSocks


                KillJoyFuckStick

                  Long run on the trails as others have said. I'd suggest getting in a couple of 50ks first (race) before jumping to the 50 mile distance.

                  You people have issues 

                  FreeSoul87


                  Runs4Sanity

                     

                    I'm not particularly fond of Illinois either having grown up in the Chicago suburbs, but I have a lot of great memories of visiting my grandparents in Southern Illinois in the summer and taking in all the state parks and other sites in the area. I believe the course is actually a rails to trails and I expect the 600+ feet refers to maximum elevation, not vertical gain. I doubt I'll make it in 2016, but I sort of have my eye on the LBL races in March.

                     

                    We used to go to Garden of the Gods every summer from 2004-2008, I know there are two places that call their parks that but this one is in Shawnee National Forest throughout counties Saline, Pope and Hardin. I wouldn't be willing to take Dorian there yet, he's too mischievous like I was and just the thought of him running around those cliffs and chimneys gives me a near heart attack.

                    After thinking about the 600' they stated, I wonder if they were talking about a tunnel.

                    I am actually registered for the marathon distance at LBL next March.

                     

                    There's a personality in my head that is very demanding, desperate and impatient and it wants the 50 miler now, only another person with sets of personalities would understand my dilemma , but if I do end up doing the OPSF5050 in November, I can always drop down to the 50k if I begin to doubt myself or my training hasn't been enough for a 50 M.

                    *Do It For Yourself, Do It Because They Said It Was Impossible, Do It Because They Said You Were Incapable*

                    PRs

                    5k - 24:15 (7:49 min/mile pace) 

                    10k - 51:47 (8:16 min/mile pace)

                    15k -1:18:09 (8:24 min/mile pace)

                    13.1 - 1:53:12 (8:39 min/mile pace)

                     26:2 - 4:14:55 (9:44 min/mile)

                    AT-runner


                    Tim

                      If not for your long run, then consider doing it as part of back-2-back weekend runs. Run long one day and trail loop 2 or 3 times on the other.  You can mix up what day is trail and what day is long. Many 50 mile plans call for B2B long runs.  If there is a nice runnable road leading up to the trail, park farther away and run to the trail and then do 2-3 loops and run back to car on flat road.

                       

                      Yes to walking/hiking. Always a good idea to practice walking. That goes for flat as well as hills.

                       

                      Yes to taking your daughter out. Have DH meet you and walk a loop with them and then go off running on your own.

                       

                      Hill repeats might work well if that trail has a nice sustained section of 1/2 mile or so. Run up, walk down, repeat.

                       

                      Good luck.

                      “Paralysis-to-50k” training plan is underway! 

                      FreeSoul87


                      Runs4Sanity

                        If not for your long run, then consider doing it as part of back-2-back weekend runs. Run long one day and trail loop 2 or 3 times on the other.  You can mix up what day is trail and what day is long. Many 50 mile plans call for B2B long runs.  If there is a nice runnable road leading up to the trail, park farther away and run to the trail and then do 2-3 loops and run back to car on flat road.

                         

                        Yes to walking/hiking. Always a good idea to practice walking. That goes for flat as well as hills.

                         

                        Yes to taking your daughter out. Have DH meet you and walk a loop with them and then go off running on your own.

                         

                        Hill repeats might work well if that trail has a nice sustained section of 1/2 mile or so. Run up, walk down, repeat.

                         

                        Good luck.

                         

                        Son, not daughter Big grin

                         

                        Just ran a 5k race out there, yeah.... I definitely need to start running these trails weekly lol. It wasn't horrible but because I pushed hard to place well, it was an ass kicking lol.

                        Yeah B&B runs of like 6 or 9 miles each sound like a good idea too, I've got a few months to try all and experiment.

                        *Do It For Yourself, Do It Because They Said It Was Impossible, Do It Because They Said You Were Incapable*

                        PRs

                        5k - 24:15 (7:49 min/mile pace) 

                        10k - 51:47 (8:16 min/mile pace)

                        15k -1:18:09 (8:24 min/mile pace)

                        13.1 - 1:53:12 (8:39 min/mile pace)

                         26:2 - 4:14:55 (9:44 min/mile)

                        AT-runner


                        Tim

                           

                          Son, not daughter Big grin

                           

                          Whoops, my apologies to your son.  Read it too fast, 

                          “Paralysis-to-50k” training plan is underway! 

                          FreeSoul87


                          Runs4Sanity

                            Whoops, my apologies to your son.  Read it too fast, 

                             

                             I think I only said 3 1/2 year old, and then a couple of "he" here or there 

                            I might just take him on those trails later today after his nap.

                            *Do It For Yourself, Do It Because They Said It Was Impossible, Do It Because They Said You Were Incapable*

                            PRs

                            5k - 24:15 (7:49 min/mile pace) 

                            10k - 51:47 (8:16 min/mile pace)

                            15k -1:18:09 (8:24 min/mile pace)

                            13.1 - 1:53:12 (8:39 min/mile pace)

                             26:2 - 4:14:55 (9:44 min/mile)