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Critique my Fueling Strategy (Read 58 times)

Jamezilla


Follower of Forrest

    I am prepping for a late April 50k.  This will be my first event over 13.1 miles.  I have been experimenting with some different products like perpetuem, hammer/ gu gels, and accelerade.  On sunday I did a ~3 hour effort and I liked how the fueling went, but I want to see if it is something that can be used over a 6+ hour effort.

     

    Products used:

    1-8oz serving of Accelerade/hour (A)

    1-packet Hammer gel/hour. (H)

     

    Nutritional Info:

    Calories - 80 cal (A) + 90 cal (H) =170 calories/hour

    Carbs - 14g (A) + 22g (H) = 36 carbs/hour

    Protein - 3g (A) + 0g (H) = 3g protein/hour

    Sodium - 127mg (A) + 20mg (H) = 147mg sodium/hour

    Potassium - 43mg (A) + 10mg (H) = 53mg potassium/hour

    Other:

    I am 145lbs.

    Using a 1.5L hydration pack for ~20 fl oz. / hour

     

    Am I missing anything?  Do I need additional electrolytes?  Any advice/critique is welcome.

    4/5 - Lost Brook Trail 10mi  1:15:42

    4/27 - Ironmaster's Challenge 50k

    6/21 - Manitou's Revenge 56mi


     

    XtremeTaper


      I just wanted to comment that you are way more detailed then me.

       

      My strategy is to ensure that I have enough fluids to get between aid stations (1 or 2 handhelds depending upon time between aid stations), and that I carry enough gels and salt tabs to get me through the race or to the next drop bag location. Generally I figure one gel every 60 minutes, 1-2 salt tabs as well in the same time depending on conditions. I really should be more detailed but think keeping it simple helps in my case.

      Trapped in the night, moving alone, caught in a world of glass and stone...

      Down to skin and bone.

       

      mtwarden


      running under the BigSky

        calories are little less than I'm used to, but I weigh 40 lbs more Smile  Perpetuem contains ~ 7 g's of protein/serving- not sure if that's the magic number, but their reasoning is it will reduce cannibalizing muscle protein, 3g may be plenty??????

         

        electrolytes seem to be a very individual matter, but that looks low to me- most recommendations I've seen have sodium in the 300-1000mg/hour, personally I shoot for something right in between ~ 600 mg (combo of  3 Clif blocks (70mg), Perpetuem ( 220mg) 1 endurolyte (100mg) and 1 saltstick (215mg) of course ymmv Big grin

         

        it's great that your experimenting as race day is not the day to try out a new regime!

                                                                   2014 

        HURL Fat Ass 50k  1/11- DNS sick :(

        Zion Traverse 47 miles 4/5 DNS :( stress fracture in heel

        Don't Fence Me In 30k 5/10

          I am prepping for a late April 50k.  ..

           

          Am I missing anything?  Do I need additional electrolytes?  Any advice/critique is welcome.

          Electrolytes will generally depend on the individual and their conditioning / heat adaptation at the time of the race.

           

          As a general "rule", if you really need electrolytes, the sports drinks don't provide enough - partly because of taste and partly because you need to be able to adjust for varying conditions.

           

          I usually depend on salty food (pretzels, wheat thins, whatever) or shot bloks (margarita flavor) for most of my electrolytes. In a longer, hotter race, I may use Succeed Scaps. But I have a low sweat rate.

           

          The other thing with testing is that it can depend on temperatures and your adaptation. You may need for electrolytes early in spring when it's first getting warm, but need less later.

           

          But for a 6-hr race, I don't think it would be that big a deal unless you drank so much that you were constantly peeing clear and copiously. Wink

           

          Have fun experimenting.

          "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog
          Jamezilla


          Follower of Forrest

            I'm a compulsive over-planner.  I'm also nervous about getting in over my head with this 50k.  I feel like my legs will carry me if I don't make any mental mistakes.  I want to at least be prepared to fuel sufficiently.

             

            Thank you Xtreme -   I needed a dose of your medicine...(oh yeah, its not going to be a picture perfect kind of thing and I'll have to adapt)

            Thank you MTwarden -  I might want to switch back to the perpetuem instead of the accelerade for some extra calories/protein/electrolytes...but I've got this big can of accelerade Joking.

            Thank you AKtrail - Overall I want to develop a strategy that could take me through a 50 miler...first stop 50k, so I very much appreciate the info on the electrolytes

             

            Also, I have no experience with the salt sticks/tabs, but that should be an easy addition.  Is there a way to know if you need them?

             

            If anyone else has any input to help prevent me from making a mess of my first distance event, it is certainly appreciated.

            4/5 - Lost Brook Trail 10mi  1:15:42

            4/27 - Ironmaster's Challenge 50k

            6/21 - Manitou's Revenge 56mi


             


            Refurbished Hip

              I'm with XT.  I don't think that hard about it.

               

              I carry either a handheld or pack, depending on how far apart the aid stations are.  I drink only water and rely on Crank E-gels (lots of sodium  in them) for electrolytes.  I eat what looks good at each aid station.  Start eating EARLY.  Don't start eating 2 hours in.  If I'm going to be running long enough to get sick of gels, I carry S! Caps too and pop one every now and again after I can't stomach any more gels.

               

              We're all one big experiment.  I tend to have an iron stomach and rarely have issues.  The farthest I have ran is 100K.  You can think even less in a 50K.  Get in some food, get in some water, and just keep moving.  You'll be more than fine.

               

              Edit: I don't think you need to worry about carrying electrolyte capsules for a spring 50K, especially if you've never used them before.  Relax and breathe.  Smile  50K isn't that much farther than your (I assume) 20+ mile training runs.

              AT-runner


                Jamezilla - If you felt pretty god for 3 hours, it's probably working for you.  The only difference will be the temperature changes if Spring ever gets here.  I use less water in the winter and more as it gets hotter.

                 

                Not sure of your speed, but Ironmaster might take longer than 6 hours due to elevation changes and the bouldering sections.  I ran with DW last year and she was second in her age group (Female 45-49) and it took us around 9 hours (was 34 miles last year due to the course markings being moved, for second year in a row).  The year before I was 7:22 (never a prize for me).  Only bringing this up for mental preparation.  The course is great, and you will do great.

                 

                There is a spot where you'll pass by your car after 20 miles so you can stock up for the last bit.  If I remember correctly, the AS's tended to have more sweet calories (cookies, orange slices, bananas) and not as much salty stuff.

                 

                I might make it out again this year.  I had a schedule change and looks like I don't have an excuse for that weekend anymore. Big grin  If I'm not running it, I'll be there helping out since I provide the tables and tents for one of the AS's.  

                Jamezilla


                Follower of Forrest

                  Mandy - thanks for the reassurance...I'm not really worried about the training part of it, only because I know I can only do what I can do, and I'm going to do everything I can to be ready.  Plus if that cross-fit guy from the "Is this a joke" thread can make it 100 miles I've gotta be able to do 34.

                  AT- I checked out the race results and it looks like only the top 3 broke 6 hours.  I have decent speed, but I have no idea how long this is gonna take me.  I think the terrain I'm working out on now should be comparable (rock scrambles, steep ascents/descents, rocky paths).  Thank you for the heads up!  Really, your race report and the info you've given me is pretty much all thats keeping me from going insane from the unknowns and the anticipation.  I hope to see you out there.

                  4/5 - Lost Brook Trail 10mi  1:15:42

                  4/27 - Ironmaster's Challenge 50k

                  6/21 - Manitou's Revenge 56mi


                   

                  AT-runner


                      Really, your race report and the info you've given me is pretty much all thats keeping me from going insane from the unknowns and the anticipation.  I hope to see you out there.

                     

                    No reason to every go insane over a race.

                     

                    The pictures from my old RR show the course pretty well.

                     

                    If you make it down this way, let me know and maybe DW and I can meet you and run some of the course.

                     

                    It looks like the RD got rid of one trail area in favor of using the logging road (Dead Women's Hollow Rd.) like we did 2 years ago.  That will help with speed, because we were almost bushwhacking that section last year and it took us over 20 minutes to do a downhill mile.

                     

                    PM me if you have any specific questions.

                    runfastandie


                      How fast and how hot will it be?

                       

                      I usually don't "plan" my salt sticks. I do keep them handy.  There is always that last 10K where you throw everything at the problem- ibuprofen, salt stick, food, water, the kitchen sink, sometimes some tears.

                       

                      Where is your food?  I just don't think I've seen many people (if any) do just gel and drink.  I think Lace-up tried doing it on perpetuum once but I missed the RR to find out how it went. You might get the runs.  What do they have on the course? I NEED pbJ sandwiches, cheeze its and I usually carry a Bonk Bar.  From the table I usually grab a handful of chips as I run, watermelon (not too much), maybe some mnms (I have no idea why because I generally hate these), gummy bears.

                       

                      On the actual run I can feel my stomach- I get side cramps if I drink too much too fast, burps if I eat too much.  So I go based on all of that.

                      Anyhow- I'm no expert- but if the top 3 do it in 6, then you are going to be out there a long day.  You need food.

                      Best of luck and make sure you report back!

                       

                      Andie

                      FTYC


                      Faster Than Your Couch!

                        Oh, I love over-planning. I just don't necessarily stick to the plan in a race, though, but go much more by feel and wing it.

                         

                        Your sodium seems low, same for the potassium. Especially in warm temperatures, you'll need much more, somewhere between 500 and 1000 mg/hour sodium, potassium about the same or up to 1.5 times as much, and to avoid cramping, adding some magnesium is good, too (just not too much because it may cause diarrhea).

                        Potassium is best to get from solid food (melon, potatoes, bananas), or from potassium salt (e.g. "Nu-Salt") in a drink (but it tastes really, really bad).

                        Too much sodium from salty foods or directly from table salt dissolved in a drink may cause an upset stomach (in most sports drinks, it is buffered, and most electrolyte supplements use buffers, too).

                        Magnesium can be taken in the form of those Mg supplement tablets, just make sure 1 tablet is less than 50% of RDV, and take 1 tablet about in the middle of your race, or later.

                         

                        Protein seems a bit high to me (it would be too "heavy" for me when I'm running, and make me feel nauseous), but if you can stomach it, it's fine. It does not need to be taken continuously, you can also have a protein drink with something like 20g of protein somewhere around 20 miles. Muscle cannibalization does not play an important role below this distance/duration.

                         

                        Like Andie said, start re-fueling early, especially if the terrain is gnarly. Take advantage of the slower sections to eat a bit more, so that you'll have energy and can run on the faster sections, where you won't be able to eat much (and keep it down).

                         

                        Gels are great, but I also get tired of them (and nauseous) after a while.

                         

                        Electrolytes are tricky, there is no way to always know how much of them you need. If you feel your muscles start cramping, you may try taking a supplement, it may help, although cramping is usually more an issue of working too hard for too long.

                        In hot conditions, I use 2 Edurolytes (equals about 1 S!-cap) per hour, in winter, I don't use anything. I drink when I'm thirsty (or bored, LOL), averaging about 16-24 (32 in heat) oz. per hour on long runs (more on short runs).

                         

                        I have run a 50-miler on perpetuem (and some Sustained Energy alternatingly), HEED and gels only, and it worked well, but I got hungry toward the end, had had enough of the sweet flavors, and was really craving solid food. On most of the 9-hr run though, it felt great, though a bit "heavy" for my sensitive stomach (I did not have that issue with Sustained Energy). I averaged 1/4-1/2 scoop/hour plus 1 gel plus 16 oz of HEED, although there were sections where I ate 2-3 gels in that hour just because those were slower sections, and I needed the energy boost.

                         

                        Prepare for warmer temperatures with your fluids and salts: keep track of what you need now, and take the same ratio of salt/fluids for warmer temperatures, when you'll drink more. This way, you'll pretty much take in the right amount of electrolytes also in the warmer weather.

                         

                        Don't worry too much about getting a drink which claims to be absorbed in your stomach at maximum speed, because your other foods will mess up the optimized osmolality of this drink anyway, which will determine absorption rate. It only works when you consume exclusively this drink, and that does not work on ultra distances.

                         

                        Have fun with more experimenting, and good luck for your race!

                        Run for fun.

                        Jamezilla


                        Follower of Forrest

                          AT- I'm sure I'll have more questions...you are too kind.  I don't think I'll make it out for a preview run (200 miles away) but I certainly appreciate the offer.

                          Andie - plan on eating real food...got it!  I'm going to have to see what agrees with me and ATrunner gave me some info on what they'll probably have on the course.  I'm going to need to prepare to be out there for a long time like you said.  The race is the last weekend in April in PA, so who knows what the weather will be like.

                          FTYC - thanks for the info on electrolytes...you gave me a lot to digest (groan).  Seriously though, thats some good info to consider.  Nice to know I'm not the only overplanner.

                          4/5 - Lost Brook Trail 10mi  1:15:42

                          4/27 - Ironmaster's Challenge 50k

                          6/21 - Manitou's Revenge 56mi


                           


                          Le professeur de trail

                            A bit of a hiijack so sorry ahead of time:

                             

                            1.) I am horrible with the hydration and re-fueling thing and I think I figured out that after reading threads like this, I am just thoroughly confused and I suppose lazy to figure it all out.  I just want the "easy" answer like - eat what you want at an aide station.  I don't want to have to think about - this many of that thing and that many of this thing every hour or half hour.  Having said that, I do need to get better so I suppose I will try one thing at a time and see how it works.  So thanks for this question Jam.

                             

                            2.) Does anyone know how the Irons Master's Challenge 50k compare to Hyner 50k? (I guess this is more for AT since you know the Iron Masters course so well).  The Iron Master's is hilly but is like Hyner, moreso, less so, different but comparable? This is much closer to me and might consider it once I am finished(whatever that means) with Hyner.

                            FTYC


                            Faster Than Your Couch!

                              Jamezilla, I just reviewed the protein. Scratch what I wrote about it, 3g/hour is just fine. I checked the perpetuem again, it has 7g/scoop (the recommendation being 1/2 to 1 scoop per hour for your weight), so you should be fine either way.

                               

                              Jamie: Leave the overplanning to Jamezilla and me. Big grin Just take some results with you if you think they are useful.

                              I don't time my fuel/electrolyte intake, I usually go by aid stations, if they are conveniently spaced (like it is the case in many races, 4-6 miles or so). So when I arrive at an aid station, I just fill up whatever I have used (or used up) by then from my 1-2 hour stash that I take with me. And I take my electrolytes at the aid station. Of course, you have to figure out where the aid stations are beforehand. I think you get the picture.

                              For the comparison between Hyner and Ironmaster, consider not only the elevation gain, but also what the hills look like. My biggest challenge at the Hyner is that they are long and steep - I find rolling courses somewhat easier to navigate (but this may be different for you, just sayin' that it may be worth looking at this aspect, too).

                              Run for fun.


                              Irish Luck

                                A bit of a hiijack so sorry ahead of time:

                                 

                                1.) I am horrible with the hydration and re-fueling thing and I think I figured out that after reading threads like this, I am just thoroughly confused and I suppose lazy to figure it all out.  I just want the "easy" answer like - eat what you want at an aide station.  I don't want to have to think about - this many of that thing and that many of this thing every hour or half hour.  Having said that, I do need to get better so I suppose I will try one thing at a time and see how it works.  So thanks for this question Jam.

                                 

                                This is so me. I just wing it.  In my 2nd 50K, I used a hydration pack with H2O and carried 2 packs of Clif Shot Bloks and a Stinger Waffle. I ate at every aid station - PBJ quarters, soft pretzels, and a swig of coke. I live for starches--pretzels, bagels--after races, during longer distances. At this same 50K, I thoroughly enjoyed the pierogi the 26 mi aid station had. I know what foods my stomach can handle (starches) and the stuff that's a problem waiting to happen (rice krispy treats, burgers, margarita mix).

                                BT survivor since 2003. Trail runner since 2009.

                                I think brain surgery stimulated my running nerve and made me into a trail runner. I'm grateful for both.

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