Faster Than Your Couch!
Anyone using such a very thin, insulated jacket (e.g. Patagonia NanoPuff: http://www.rei.com/product/853405/patagonia-nano-puff-jacket-womens ?
I'm thinking of perhaps getting one, for really cold, windy days, but I'm not sure if it would be too warm for running.
I usually wear a Polartec 200 fleece jacket over a cold compression shirt, and a rain jacket on top if it's windy, and this is usually fine, just the rain jacket keeps the sweat from evaporating, so after a while, I get all wet, which quickly gets uncomfortable when I have to walk. I like to be rather warm than cool when I run.
Experiences, comments?
Run for fun.
The Patagucci Nano Puff would probably work well for that.
LB2
Well, don't know about the nanopuff.... but for me, I think behavior is more important than WHAT I'm wearing. I think the most important thing is to strip down a layer as soon as I start to get sweaty. That's usually about 0.7 miles in for me.
Can you wash that nanopuff? I'm wondering how it's going to smell..... Also, doesn't look like you could tie that around your waist very easily.
Couch,
I've had that patagonia jacket for several years (the hooded version). I really like it for everyday use, but I've never used it for running. I don't think it would be very breathable, once you warm up-- I suspect that sweat would condense on the inside layer.
Last year I got this Nike Element Shield jacket for running, and I really like it. It works well for temps into the 20s with good wind block, yet breathable, and a soft fleecy interior. I bought the older version on discount (the one in the link above). I don't know how it compares to this year's model. I haven't tested lower temps, yet, but I will be using it in MN in a couple of weeks at single digits. I think I'll probably add another layer or two.
edit: I'm not dealing with the kind of wind you usually are facing, Marie. Have you thought about a vest? I think the nano-puff comes in a vest and would help keep your core warm, but could provide greater ventilation. And my jacket washes up very easily.
running under the BigSky
I had a nanopuff, nice jacket (mine was a pullover), but not suitable for running imo
I'd look at one of the grid fleeces for warmth, but still adequate breathing (the naonpuff or similar would fail in this category)- I have nothing but high praise for the Patagonia Cap 4 hoody- it's a pullover, but has a nice deep chest zip for venting, thumb loops and a very functional hood- teamed w/ a good windshirt it gets me down to 0-ish degrees
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Refurbished Hip
I ran in -1 (real temp) degrees last night. I wore my Patagonia Wind Shield jacket and two normal tech layers underneath (one a 1/4 zip and the other just a thicker long sleeve) and was fine. I can't imagine running in down (or fake down, or whatever is in there.) If it's even colder or I need to stay even warmer, I will swap the middle layer for fleece.
Running is dumb.
I've got an REI Spruce Run (iirc, on closeout, so under $100) that is similar, and it goes in my pack on long winter runs - or if I'm planning on stopping for awhile while I take pictures of a race (that I'm not running). It works ok for running at subzero F, probably colder. (I got chilled when I stopped, and never warmed up again, even with the jacket on while running)
I suspect you'd sweat in that jacket, same as with rain jacket. And if you peel it, you've lost the insulation.
I usually wear layers under a windshell - usually windproof, but not waterproof. No, the shell doesn't breathe well, but in a 50mph wind, I'd rather have it blocking wind than worried about breathable material.
What I'll wear sometimes, is insulation layer(s) that are somewhat wind resistant. Can't remember the exact specs, but Sporthill's Swift fabric and their Catalyst top (different garments, but can't remember the name of the first or the materials in the second) are wind resistant by virtue of their weave.They breathe well and still work well for running in calm or light breeze. I've got a fleece full-zip top, which has no wind protection and seldom gets used - too warm as a layer, too breezy without a shell.
Thanks for all your input.
I tried the nanopuff jacket on at REI last year, and I liked it. I was not sure if it would work for running, but the sweating and frequent washing is definitely a problem. I suppose washing it often will deteriorate the insulation.
I am now considering getting some wind resistant fleece instead. I tried some sweaters of that kind lately, and they are fairly warm even in wind. I hope something like that would suffice for the stiff breeze that blows on my mountain sometimes, combined with flurries or light rain.
Or maybe a softshell jacket, but these seem too similar to neoprene in my opinion - bulky and stiff, and no moisture wicking, so that you'll get soaked in your sweat just like in a rain jacket. Or am I wrong on that one?
Down doesn't come to mind as a really breathable layer, but I like the style of the Nano puff...maybe Santa can get you a post-run warm up layer?
For super cold [which is relative, of course...cold here is single digits/ sometimes a degree or 2 below zero] I have a seriously bomb proof jacket from Athleta. They don't carry it anymore, but it is essentially just a wind-stopping soft shell with a thin insulating layer. On a single digit temp run I can wear it with just a base long sleeve layer and a hat/tights and I am good for hours. It is vented in the back, which is pretty important.
I know it doesn't help to get advice for a discontinued product, but my recommendation is a nice quality soft-shell layer that is lightly insulated. With ski season upon us there might be deals on cross country ski jackets?
^ so, your newest comment hadn't shown up while I was typing mine....but another 2 cents...yes, the softshell material can feel a bit stiff, but it makes a huge difference with wind.
In slightly warmer temps, 20's or so, I do wear a performance fleece instead of the softshell, but I have yet to find a truly wind-stopping fleece...maybe I just haven't shopped around enough, but so far the softshell still wins out in frigid temps/ and or cold wind chills.
My bombproof jacket I mentioned does get a bit sweaty if the temperature goes up too much, so that's the catch - it has to stay cold enough to leave it on for the whole run. If I know I am going to start out in single digits, but run into warmer temps [ happens to me living in a river valley...I can run up out of the inversion where it is 15-20 warmer] I will bring a mid weight layer to change into.
I did notice last year that all the cross country ski instructors at my kids' lessons were wearing softshell jackets of varying kinds, so there must be some with a bit more flex and venting?
I think you have a great excuse to go on a fun gear shopping quest....
my .02 (well now .04 ), but I think you'd be better off w/ two garments vs one. you need an outer layer that will shed wind (and light precip), but still is able to breathe- this is where a windshirt (windjacket) shines. It does this job well and only weighs ounces and packs small so it can always go with (winter->summer). for winter you need a garment that insulates, but breathes well- I haven't found anything that breathes as well as grid fleece, while still providing decent warmth- it also dries quickly. if it's really cold you can use the grid fleece as a mid-layer, w/ a syn or merino base layer underneath and the windshirt (windjacket) on the exterior
I have several softshells (and hard shells for that matter) and they are nice for less aerobic activities than running, but most (all?) I'm afraid are going to be overwhelmed by perspiration from running
this system gives you lots of options as the weather can (and often does) change over the course of a long run
I dunno - I have a grid fleece, too but sweat as much in that as I do in a softshell? Maybe I just sweat too much...
But - one more thought....I have a layer I really like that is ridiculously warm for the relative thinness of the material...http://www.mountainhardwear.com/womens-beta-power-1-4-zip-OL5048.html?colorID=010
I think if you had a windstopper layer or an extra thermal layer under a fleece, that could work, too...I just find fleece too bulky to use as anything but an outer layer?
+1 to the merino wool blend layers - some are great warmth with very little bulk, nice way to add base or mid-layers without making you look like the Stay-Puft marshmallow man..
Ok - that's like a dime's worth of my opinions...sorry
Just some additional thoughts. The idea of layering is being able to add / peel layers as needed. Garments with two layers combined (shell and insulation) may defeat that purpose, unless just using it while taking a break. The softshells that i've seen fall into that category. (I do have one for around town in appropriate weather.)
The top that I use the most in winter (probably October to March or April) is Sporthill Infuzion. They've redesigned it but looks similar to the top row here. It uses the original Swift (but not as ugly as the hoodie they show), and I'm assuming the SwiftPro is an improved fabric. I do not like the 3SP for a top (too stiff), but love the pants made of it. Today, I was out today for a couple hours in a t-shirt, my infusion, and Marmot ClimaDry shirt / jacket (shell with liner) at +17F and light snow and was fine once I warmed up.
The Sporthill Catalyst that I layer over the Infuzion or a base layer is made from WindPro, which is described in this table of Malden Mills (Mill Direct Textiles) fabrics.
Sporthill fabric descriptions are listed here.
Things with fuzzy outers, like the Catalyst, tend to catch more snow and also get more frost covered (not sure if that's good or bad for wicking).
When layering, alternate fuzzy and smooth layers - easier to put on / take off, but also slide better while moving so you avoid that restrictive feeling when wearing multiple layers. Catalyst will layer over Infuzion. If I want to put the Catalyst over something fuzzy, I may put a minimal windshell in between for its slipperiness - assuming the wind blockage isn't an issue.
The North Face used to have a table of fabrics for one of their lines also - either Apex or Flight Series, but I'm not seeing the details they used to have a number of years ago. Those looked good also when I looked at them in REI about 8 yr ago. Here's a list of their current fabrics.
Yes, I'm fussy about what I wear, esp. when I've got stuff that almost works and looking for a better mousetrap. I don't need more "almosts".
BTW Primaloft is one of the better synthetics, but not sure how it compares with some newer ones, like TNF's Thermoball.
Not trying to be an ass or anything but man, you guys can sure overthink and analyze stuff. If it's -5F how long are you really gonna run? For 1-2 hours out there it doesn't need to be complicated--see Mandy's post below. That's perfect.
I have run thru over 30 Wisconsin winters. A light coat or windshirt and a long sleeve tech shirt will get me thru about anything. In the worst conditions I'll add a fleece vest and face protection. It's not like you're sitting on a frozen lake ice fishing. When Mandy and I ran last weekend it was 4F. I wore a light cross-country ski jacket and a long sleeve with zipper tech top and we ran for 2 hours. It was fine though if we were gonna stand around and talk I would have froze.
Just look at what decent cross country skiers wear. Don't overdress.
Save the 5 hour run for a day above zero.
... Save the 5 hour run for a day above zero.
Hmm, it's good to know what gear to use when doing races or helping with trail work when it's subzero F and we'll be out there 4-5hrs or more. Some of my friends do the 100mi, 350mi, and 1000mi winter ultras so they train in whatever nature dishes out because they will likely encounter that in their race. I learned a lot about gear from them on the first workday I went out on - I had a lot of clumsy gear that I needed to keep from freezing when we stopped to brush. They had much better gear - plus their sleds.
Many skiers don't ski when it's cold because their skis don't glide. I believe something like -6F is lower limit for official competitions, but there will still be ski tourers and some classic folks out.
Yes, I've been frustrated by the windproof gear that results in sweating, so have done a fair amount of homework on what's out there and what parameters seem to work. Cheaper than buying a bunch of gear that doesn't work.