Circle North

1

For the Jockey (Read 170 times)

L Train


    Help with defining tempo runs:

     

    http://runningtimes.com/Print.aspx?articleID=5615

     

    I'd say your true tempo pace is around 6:25-6:30, with HMP being 6:45.  I think you being able to do a 7 mile tempo all around 6:30ish is a GREAT sign, as long as you were relaxed and not "racing" your tempo.  You really have to pay attention on your recovery days if you are going to be doing this workout, though.  If it were me, I'd be alternating the shorter (5-6 miles) at 6:25-6:30 with longer (7-8 miles) at 6:45 workouts on my workout days.  And I'd practice MP running at the middle/end of my long runs. 

     

    Really good workout, though.   

     

    GregM


      Thanks, Lance, for the advice.  As always, you know more about this sort of thing than anyone else on the forum, with Salty, Tall Dave, Michael and others who have done the required reading a close second. Your advice jives with what I recall reading on McMillan Running, which is the extent of my reading on tempo runs.  On the distance, as you know, I only planned to run 5-6 tempo miles, and I really only had 6 at 6:30 pace.  Was I racing?  I don't think so.  The heart rate was mostly at 150 or less, although it climbed above that near the end of the tempo miles.  I felt pretty relaxed, and I only had to break out the whip when I felt myself starting to get lazy.  Most of the time, I was massaging and calming the beast. 

       

      I'll be alternating the tempo runs with the slightly longer runs at HMP, as you suggest.  And, yes, I remember the advice on McMillan Running about practicing MP during the middle or end of long runs.  What I wonder about this, however, is how long should this MP practice be?  After all, a long run should be mostly an easy pace, right?  Are you saying 2-3 miles at MP during the middle or end of a long run, or more like 5-6 or 8-10?  Should it be a certain fraction or percentage of the long run distance?  I recall reading that, at the end of your training, you should be able to run 13-15 miles at MP during a long run, and this is my current goal.  I managed this before Boston this year, and I'm sure you did also.

       

      Thanks for the encouragement, the link, and the advice.  And BTW, I like your choice of the topic title.  I need to remember that I'm the jockey, and my body's the beast.  That certainly makes it easier when I have to break out the whip.

      Older, slower, and trying to keep up with Tall Dave.

      L Train


        Thanks, Lance, for the advice.  As always, you know more about this sort of thing than anyone else on the forum, with Salty, Tall Dave, Michael and others who have done the required reading a close second.

         

        This is certainly not true - I probably just talk about it more.  And I can really only speak from my own experience.  Sure, I've done some reading and stuff.  There's so much out there, though, and so many difering opinions that it just sort of becomes trial and error and an experiment of one for each of us. 

         

         

        And, yes, I remember the advice on McMillan Running about practicing MP during the middle or end of long runs.  What I wonder about this, however, is how long should this MP practice be?  After all, a long run should be mostly an easy pace, right?  Are you saying 2-3 miles at MP during the middle or end of a long run, or more like 5-6 or 8-10?  Should it be a certain fraction or percentage of the long run distance?  I recall reading that, at the end of your training, you should be able to run 13-15 miles at MP during a long run, and this is my current goal.  I managed this before Boston this year, and I'm sure you did also. 

         

        I think you are well past the point of 2-3 miles at MP being worth anything to you.  If you are doing 5-6 at tempo pace on a  mid week run, you are capable of getting in longer MP miles during the long runs.  I'd be starting at 7-8, and I've done as many as 20 at MP 3 weeks out (though I think this was a mistake). I think if you can work up to a peak workout 3-4 weeks before the marathon that has 14 at MP, that would be about perfect.  I just wouldn't make ALL of my long runs this way - maybe every other week, especially depending on your weekly mileage and the intensity/frequency of any other workouts you are doing.  I prefer to do my tempo work by myself also, so that I know I'm not being influenced by anyone else.  For example, if I run a tempo with you, I MIGHT be able to keep up for a while.  But even if I do, I don't know if I'm really running to effort or if I'm subconsciously racing.  To me, that taints the feedback and perhaps paints a brighter picture than what is really there.   

         

        FWIW, the whole practicing MP may not be quite as important to you as it is to some because you have a lot of marathon/racing experience already.  Your faster tempo work and weekly miles will have a much bigger impact IMO.   

         

        GregM


          Once again, great practical advice.  You need to start coaching, Lance.  I'll be doing 7-8 at MP on my next long run, and I'll plan on 14-15 at MP 3 weeks out on my last long run.  I'll have to look at your log to see when you did 20 at MP.  That does seem to be quite a lot, especially if it's 4 weeks out or less. 

           

          You say you wouldn't make all of your long runs this way, only every other one.  By that, do you mean a long run with any MP miles.  Or should every long run contain some MP mileage? 

           

          (Looking at McMillan Running, I may have found the answer: "marathon goal pace runs are most
          effective when they occur at the end of a moderately long run. For example, say one weekend
          you run a long run of 18 miles as you build toward a long run of 20-24 miles during your training
          plan. On the next weekend, it's a good idea to run a moderately long run of around 14 miles but
          build your pace steadily over the run so that the last four to six miles are at your goal marathon
          race pace. This gets you used to running your goal pace while tired which is essential for a
          successful marathon."  Of course, I would shoot for more that 4-6 miles at MP, and McMillan

          agrees:  "If you can build to doing 13-15 miles at your marathon goal pace without excess effort,

          then you can be very confident that you will reach your marathon goal time."  For tempo runs, the

          same point (aim to go longer, not faster) seems to hold:  McMillan explains, "It's much better with

          Stamina workouts to challenge yourself to go longer at a given pace than faster.")

           

          I like the idea of focusing on tempo runs rather than MP runs because I've not been doing any speed work.  And I'd like to think that the increased mileage is itself helpful, regardless of the pace, although I think it's a mistake to focus on mileage without also including speed work, as the fast twitch muscles lose their tone, decreasing one's racing speed and increasing the risk of injury during a race.  I'm speculating about this, but it's what I've heard and it fits with my experience.

          Older, slower, and trying to keep up with Tall Dave.

          GregM


            I think you being able to do a 7 mile tempo all around 6:30ish is a GREAT sign, as long as you were relaxed and not "racing" your tempo.

             

            Looking at the article you cited, which is an excellent study, I see this:  "For those fond of using heart rate monitors, Daniels notes that tempo runs are done at 90% of maximum."  Based on 220-minus-age, my maximum is 172, and 90% of this is 155.  Quoting Daniels, McMillan says, "Tempo runs are meant to be "comfortably hard" so don't push the pace. Your heart rate will likely be between 85 and 90% of max."  Based on this, my 6 miles at 6:30 pace were tempo miles, as my heart rate was 143, 150, 149, 149, 150, and 152 for each mile, respectively.  The only question in my mind is whether I should shoot for the 90% of max recommended by Daniels.  For me, I think that's too fast, given my typical race heart rate, which is 155-160.

            Older, slower, and trying to keep up with Tall Dave.


            My salty dogs

              Looking at the article you cited, which is an excellent study, I see this:  "For those fond of using heart rate monitors, Daniels notes that tempo runs are done at 90% of maximum."  Based on 220-minus-age, my maximum is 172, and 90% of this is 155.  Quoting Daniels, McMillan says, "Tempo runs are meant to be "comfortably hard" so don't push the pace. Your heart rate will likely be between 85 and 90% of max."  Based on this, my 6 miles at 6:30 pace were tempo miles, as my heart rate was 143, 150, 149, 149, 150, and 152 for each mile, respectively.  The only question in my mind is whether I should shoot for the 90% of max recommended by Daniels.  For me, I think that's too fast, given my typical race heart rate, which is 155-160.

               This is why I love the winter races in NE.  Derry, Stu's, and the 1/2s always give me a long MP run.  The fall marathon is hard because I can't find long races -- I'm too weak minded to do it on training runs. With a 1/2 running 2-3 first and 2-3 afterwards is a good way to get the same thing but more difficult mentally to put in the extra.

               

              As for your normal HR -- I've always thought you needed to try to bring that up and get a better "personalized" picture than following a formula.

              During the practice races I pay more attention to my HR than anything.

               

              The formula is a good start but how do you get it up??  

              I think you should try a road test to get a better predictor ---  go to a track  run a couple 1/2 mile warm ups.  Then--  plan t run 1 to 1.5 miles pretty much all out. After 2 laps at 5K pace --look at your HR - keep the pace and watch your HR.  Hold pace -- for as many laps as possible. 

              Stop when you can't hold the pace any longer -- note your HR -- likely that is your threshold and base your % off than not the formula.

               

              How to improve ---   speed work -- but controlled -- multiple 400, 800, 1200 at your 90%.  BUT.... hot to improve your threshold (not just genetics) --- improve your lung capacity --  better posture is key -- how you hold your arms,  but breathing is #1 in my book.  3-2 count of out vs in. Compress the diaphragm on the exhale --allow the belly to expand on it's own on the inhale.  Opposite of most (99.9%) people. Practice while walking or jogging.  LIkley your breathing, arms, and posture are holding your true aerobic capacity back and forcing you to keep a lower heart rate to maintain an equilibrium of CO^2 thus lactic acid build up.  Removing the CO^2 will keep the build up of LA from slowing you down and allow your HR threshold to increase. DO THIS EVERY 3 MONTHS -- IT CAN CHANGE (hopefully improve)  - THUS WHY THE FORULA ISN"T THAT GOOD- age is just a number -- and for "normal" people and you are not normal!!!!!

               

              In a race -- running behind someone allows you to drop 1-2 beats of HR thus recover a bit -- or run faster than being out breaking the air (even if no wind).

               

              Final note -- once you run a sub 3hr -- stop doing any of this -- you are getting too close to me.