Sub-4 Marathon Group

December Donuts (Read 563 times)

SprinklesRunner


Whippet

    Happy birthday banshee! I've been MIa for a few days. I had most of the week off, so I spent my time reorganizing the house and spinning. No running because of the back pain. Turns out I sprained my SI joint. Hopefully there is no soft tissue involvement, meaning I should be good to go in a week or so. So annoyed I have to go to the office today. I was so enjoying being lazy.

    13.1: 1:45 | 26.2: 3:55


    Smashy!!!

      Onemile, oops, for some reason, I had it in my had that you were a dude. Aaaanyways... You gotta keep in mind the purpose of the workouts. The tempo runs are intended to make you internalize the pace you will run on race day. They even suggest using those days as dress rehearsals. The rest of the workouts are designed to support you running THAT pace on raceday. So if you plan on running somewhere between 8:45-8:50, then it does you no good to train at 8:30. Faster isn't better just because it's faster. A strength run at 8:20 is too fast to build the systems needed to run a GMP at 8:45.

       

      Dreamn, wind sucks. in fact, it sucks so much that I think our group t-shirt should say "wind sucks." on the front and "The Runnin Donuts" on the back. That's how much wind sucks.

       

      Indi, you're an awesome father and husband. I Hope you're back on track.

       

      Josh, hope you feel better.

       

      Qotd, what was your favorite race of the year, and why? (Bonus points for not citing a PR as the reason.)

      For me, it was the Emerald City Half-Marathon. I loved it because it's so convenient. You park at the grocery store lot and walk next door to the hospital and you're ready to go. The route is relatively flat, and somewhat scenic. I also executed the way i wanted to. My one beef was the weather: hot and humid. Lastly... I PRed (I forfeit the bonus points).

      PRs: 21:35 (5K); 1:46:46 (HM); 4:30:46 (FM)


      Smashy!!!

        Happy birthday banshee! I've been MIa for a few days. I had most of the week off, so I spent my time reorganizing the house and spinning. No running because of the back pain. Turns out I sprained my SI joint. Hopefully there is no soft tissue involvement, meaning I should be good to go in a week or so. So annoyed I have to go to the office today. I was so enjoying being lazy.

        Sucks. I hope it turns out to be nothing. Was it just some freak thing? It doesn't bother you while spinning?

        PRs: 21:35 (5K); 1:46:46 (HM); 4:30:46 (FM)

        akalei


          Morning, donuts!  Getting ready to head out for however many miles my incredibly sore legs can handle.  Hopefully at least 6, but really want to do 8.  Then heading to south Jersey for a few days to visit a friend.  I'm interested to see how different things will look as I haven't been down since Sandy.

           

          Rollcast: Honestly, not sure, because I've only ever done vinyasa.  The studio also offers bikram though so I'm assuming it must be different.  Class was awesome but all the warrior poses were killer the night after lifting legs for the first time in a long time.

           

          I agree with the wind complaints! It seems so much worse this year than last year here in CPA, too!  And josh, you're nuts.  But I'm sure you already knew that Smile

          My PR's! 5K: 21:54 | 10M: 1:16:55 | HM: 1:43:40 | Full: 3:51:56

          2013: BQ or bust!

          http://justalongfortherun.blogspot.com


          Rusk Runner

            Nice new kix Roll.  I would like to hear a good review from you after you get them on the road for a few miles (if it ever stops raining). I had thought about trying them before I went with the Flow.  Now I dislike running in anything with too much heel drop.

             

            I wanted to try the Altras like Banshee however, I dont think my arches are ready to go without a bit of added support and I dont know how the altras would fare with aftermarket inserts.  Thats something  I would have to try at the LRS.

             

            Onemile - If you can handle training at 8:30, do it.  And if you can get through all of your training running those paces comfortably, you might try it in the race.  Most of us in here are in the improvemnet stage of our running lives.  Being overly aggressive in our first seems to hurt many of us but we are still getting more fit.  IMO we should not cruise through MRT saying "well I handled that comfortably" or "that wasy easy"!  I think we need to push ourselves, just not so hard we end up injured.  One of the reasons I was able to keep pushing through after the 22 mile mark in Marathon #2 was because I knew the pain was less than what I had experienced on a couple of training runs.

             

            Amik (mudqueen) - How goes the taper madness?  Have you started any visualization drills?

             

            I am visualizing me getting on the road for a run today.  I am edging towards shooting the treadmill if I have to do too many runs in a row on it.

            PRs...5K - 20:36, 4mile - 26:15, 13.1 - 1:32, 26.2 - 3:42

            Just Run!!!

            onemile


              Cbus - I agree with you regarding internalizing the pace and becoming efficient at the pace.  But about the strength runs... the book says they should be close to HMP, so that they are more like LT workouts.  My HMP is 8:07, so 8:20 for those, I would think would be better than slowing them down even further.  And now I'm curious if you are a dude or a chick?   Big grin

               

              Indiana - I definitely don't want it to be easy or comfortable.  I prefer to push things.  I'm thinking about trying the 8:30 and seeing how it feels.  I did do 3 at 8:30 a few weeks ago because I was feeling good and wanted to try it and it felt do-able for training (didn't feel like MP though!).

               

              Sprinkles - hope your back is better soon.

               

              QOTD:  I think my favorite race this year was the 5k I ran in August.  I had been HM training and doing speedwork so I was hoping to PR.  My PR was 25:30 and I thought I could probably get a sub-25 time.  I hadn't realized how much faster I had gotten and ended up running a 23:07.  Which was way beyond what I thought I was capable of.  (It WAS a PR race at the time but I've sinced improved my 5k to 22:46)

               

              8 miles planned for tonight.  We're getting a little snow today so I hope it's not bad out.

              mdawg87


                Good morning!  Abs and elliptical at the gym this morning.

                 

                Calf update:  Test jog was an unqualified success!  No pain at all.  I'm still erring on the side of caution and taking another week off though.  When I move my leg a certain way, there's still some tightness/slight pain.  The best way to describe it is comparing it to a healing cut or scrape that when the skin is moved a certain way, it "pulls" and is uncomfortable.  I want to make sure that's gone before attempting any mileage.

                 

                Josh:  You get the toughest donut award.  I don't know how you ran in that cold.  I thought it was cold in Atlanta yesterday.  Wow...

                 

                Banshee:  Happy belated birthday!  Sounds like you had a good day.

                 

                Sprinkles:  Heal up!

                 

                Indy:  Nice job taking care of the family.  Hope everyone is on the road to recovery.

                 

                QOTD:  I'd have to say the Chicago Marathon was my favorite.  Even though I ran it injured and certainly didn't PR (cbus...where are my bonus points???), it was the best race I've ever run.  It was well organized, in a great city, well supported by the locals, etc.  If you ever get the chance to run it, do it.  Don't let the number of runners (35-40K) scare you away.

                PRs:  1:39:24 (HM)  3:47:02 (FM)


                Smashy!!!

                  Onemile, they write, "The faster the runner, the closer this corresponds to half-marathon pace, but for the novice, this is between goal marathon pace and half-marathon ability." I'm not trying to call you a novice by any means (although I have no problem calling myself one), but I take this to mean, for people whose marathon and half-marathon abilities are not in alignment will run those Strength runs slower. But they are insistent that it should be :10 slower than GMP. Using myself as an example, my HM PR means I should run my Strength workout at 8:00--the same as if I were training for a 3:34 marathon. No way. More realistic is a 3:50ish marathon, which means my Strength pace should be 8:40. Yes, I can run much faster, but that faster pace is not achieving the goal of supporting my GMP pace. Also keep in mind, these Strength runs are not like Pfitz tempo runs. They are not meant to be killers, but rather, just hard enough to produce benefits while keeping you on track for the rest of the week. They write, "since these are less intense than the speed intervals, you may be tempted to exceed the prescribed pace, but keep in mind that the adaptation you're looking for specifically occur at that speed, no faster." ultimately, you'll have to decide whether your goal is 8:50, 8:45, or 8:30. But the way I read them is that once you choose that goal, you base the Strength, Speed, and Tempo runs on that goal pace, and not a hypothetical pace.

                   

                  And oh yeah, I'm a dude. You can verify that by clicking on my handle to see my profile pic. That's me all blown up at Twin Cities. All blown up.

                  PRs: 21:35 (5K); 1:46:46 (HM); 4:30:46 (FM)

                  onemile


                    Onemile, they write, "The faster the runner, the closer this corresponds to half-marathon pace, but for the novice, this is between goal marathon pace and half-marathon ability." I'm not trying to call you a novice by any means (although I have no problem calling myself one), but I take this to mean, for people whose marathon and half-marathon abilities are not in alignment will run those Strength runs slower. But they are insistent that it should be :10 slower than GMP. Using myself as an example, my HM PR means I should run my Strength workout at 8:00--the same as if I were training for a 3:34 marathon. No way. More realistic is a 3:50ish marathon, which means my Strength pace should be 8:40. Yes, I can run much faster, but that faster pace is not achieving the goal of supporting my GMP pace. Also keep in mind, these Strength runs are not like Pfitz tempo runs. They are not meant to be killers, but rather, just hard enough to produce benefits while keeping you on track for the rest of the week. They write, "since these are less intense than the speed intervals, you may be tempted to exceed the prescribed pace, but keep in mind that the adaptation you're looking for specifically occur at that speed, no faster." ultimately, you'll have to decide whether your goal is 8:50, 8:45, or 8:30. But the way I read them is that once you choose that goal, you base the Strength, Speed, and Tempo runs on that goal pace, and not a hypothetical pace.

                     

                    And oh yeah, I'm a dude. You can verify that by clicking on my handle to see my profile pic. That's me all blown up at Twin Cities. All blown up.

                     

                    I'm confused.  I think our HM PRs are about the same? (Mine is 1:46:25).  Strength workouts are MP minus 10 seconds, not HMP minus 10 seconds.  So based on my HM PR it would be 8:33 for MP and then subtract 10 seconds and that would give me 8:23 for those workouts.  Not 8:00.  I guess if I plan to run the marathon at 8:45 (but really at this point I have no idea what my fitness will be on M day), I could do the strength workouts at 8:35.  I'm not sure how much difference 10 seconds per mile makes.

                     

                    I was thinking I will adjust my GMP as I go based on what my fitness is.  I plan to do a few tune up races throughout and hopefully can dial into a realistic MP as the race gets closer.

                     

                    And yes, you do look like a dude and not a green monster in your profile Big grin  Maybe I should put a pic so as not to confuse people.  Or maybe not.

                    onemile


                      There, I added a picture to my profile.  Hehe.

                        Sprinkles - ouch, hyaluronic acid may help, according to my weight lifting buddies. Its a natural substance in joints and cartilage.

                         

                        akalei - my wife swears that bikram is the answer to all that is good and healthy - she has become a "zen" master and is in great shape

                         

                        Indi - i tried the flows on but, i am opposite and need some heel drop. May just need a transition

                         

                        mdawg - great update on the calf. I wanna run the Chi-town one day. Its where i was born. We moved to south when I was very young but returned to see cousins every year until i was a teenager and then again just recently with my little ones. Man the food options there are crazy good

                         

                        zoe - welcome back

                         

                        Banshee - i admit i was intrigued by the Altra but they seemed to steer people in other directions at LRS here, i may try a pair next time i am there.

                         

                        Happy Friday and remember to earn your donuts people!

                        PR's : HM 1:51:15  -  5K 21:27

                         

                         


                        Smashy!!!

                          Onemile, my mistake! I looked at the wrong chart (I was looking under the half-marathon goal column). So the paces you are talking about are the correct ones. But, as far as, how much difference 10 sec. makes, I think the answer is a lot. When they write that the adaptation happens at that pace, and no faster (which I imagine the lights going dark, and a flashlight shining up at their faces when I read those words) that they feel 10 sec. is the difference between effective and ineffective. This may not seem as obvious when it comes to a 6 mile workout, but think about the marathon: we know that in the difference between an 9:00 minute pace and an 8:50 pace may lie the entire race.

                           

                          Going back to the Hansons v Pfitz debate. I think this is a big difference. I think the Hansons know that most runners could do those Strength workouts at quite a clip faster than the prescribed paces. But they are urging us to run them at 10 sec below goal pace to induce specific physiological adaptations that support running your goal pace. It's not about general fitness, but about fine tuning the body around goal pace. Whereas when Pfitz prescribes a tempo workout, it is at half-marathon pace, which, I think the argument goes, may help your general fitness but does not help as much in terms of your specific goal pace. I sort of think about it like cars (which makes no sense, since I know nothing of cars). Pfitz is trying to modify his car to make its top speed higher, even though it will spend most of its time driving 65 mph. Whereas the Hansons are thinking if the car is going to spend most of its time at 65 mph, then let's modify it to support that, and not some hypothetical top speed.

                           

                          That profile pic is pretty much proves you are female. However, my profile pic, while proves that I am male, does not disprove that I am a green smashy monster.

                          PRs: 21:35 (5K); 1:46:46 (HM); 4:30:46 (FM)

                          Slymoon Runs


                          race obsessed

                            Morning

                             

                             

                             

                            I run in sub 30F in shorty shorts and a tech-t and am fine.  I go to the store in 50F wearing jeans, shirt, hoodie coat and freeze my ass off. wtf over.  Really annoying to be sitting in my house with a wool cap on.


                            Ball of Fury

                              Morning Donuts!

                               

                              Josh:  Sorry you had such a bad run, but good for you for braving the cold and getting out there!

                              Akalei:  I would choose hot yoga over a cold run any day!  Hope you enjoyed your run today and have a great trip!

                              Indy:  Thanks so much for the advice....I do visualize myself running a flawlessly paced race...I am pretty sure the reality is not going to look quite a glorious!  I haven't gone too crazy with taper madness yet, but probably just because we have been so busy with the holidays.  DH did ask me today if I was sure we didn't need to run further than 14 miles on Sunday...had to give him a lecture...lol!  I hope you were able to get outside and run today, you deserve it after dealing with all the sickness at your house!

                              Zoe:  Nice 9 mile run!

                              Onemile:  Glad you had a good 8 miles  yesterday!  You do not get bonus points for the QOTD though!

                              Roll:  Way to get out there and brave the rain!!

                              Dreamn:  Seriously, wind is my nemesis!  I absolutely hate it more than any other weather condition!

                              Sprinkles:  So sorry to hear about the back...hope it recovers quickly!

                              CBus:  I seriously lol'd when you came up with the bonus points and then your favorite race was a PR!  Thanks so much for all your continued advice!  Columbus is on our list of possible races!

                              MDawg:  So glad you had a nice test jog....hopefully by next week you will be as good as new!

                              Banshee:  Happy Birthday plus 1!  So happy to hear there is another crazy person on here who enjoys mud runs/obstacle courses.  We have run one Tough Mudder and I was glad we did it, but I don't know if I would do it again.  I prefer the Spartan Race series, I think because it is timed and is competitive, versus the TM which is more of a group experience.  I have to say that electroshock therapy and the arctic enema where very challenging for me mentally though!

                              Sly:  I am ALWAYS cold!  There is ZERO chance I could run in 30 degree weather in shorts and a short sleeve shirt!

                              Strider:  That is fantastic advice for the marathon...thank you!

                               

                              Since the kiddos are still out of school, DH and I had to split up the day, so he ran this morning and I will run after work...planning for 8 miles but my ITB is still a little tight so I will play it by ear.

                               

                              QOTD:  This is a tough one as 2012 was really our first year of racing and we did at least 1/month, but I think my favorite was probably The Meltdown, which was a series of 5K races...one at 8, one at 9, and one at 10, so the faster you finished, the more recovery time you had.  It was in July and really hot and humid, so I didn't PR any of them (although I did place 2nd and 3rd in age group) but it was just a fun experience and to see so many people willing to put themselves out there like that was pretty cool.  There was a lady in her mid 70s that ran all 3 of them and I just thought she was really inspirational!

                              PRs:  5K 22:59, 10K 46:54,HM: 1:51:15

                              onemile


                                Interesting.  I've asked this question of a few people so far and for the most part everyone agrees that in training I should use the McMillian pace.  But you seem more familiar with the book and what Hanson intended.  Now I want to go re-read these sections this weekend.  My first MP run is next Thursday and I'm already worried about it.

                                 

                                It seems kind of unlikely to me that you will know your exact marathon pace at the beginning of the training cycle.  And if it's that touchy that 10 seconds off makes a difference...what if I choose wrong?

                                 

                                 

                                Onemile, my mistake! I looked at the wrong chart (I was looking under the half-marathon goal column). So the paces you are talking about are the correct ones. But, as far as, how much difference 10 sec. makes, I think the answer is a lot. When they write that the adaptation happens at that pace, and no faster (which I imagine the lights going dark, and a flashlight shining up at their faces when I read those words) that they feel 10 sec. is the difference between effective and ineffective. This may not seem as obvious when it comes to a 6 mile workout, but think about the marathon: we know that in the difference between an 9:00 minute pace and an 8:50 pace may lie the entire race.

                                 

                                Going back to the Hansons v Pfitz debate. I think this is a big difference. I think the Hansons know that most runners could do those Strength workouts at quite a clip faster than the prescribed paces. But they are urging us to run them at 10 sec below goal pace to induce specific physiological adaptations that support running your goal pace. It's not about general fitness, but about fine tuning the body around goal pace. Whereas when Pfitz prescribes a tempo workout, it is at half-marathon pace, which, I think the argument goes, may help your general fitness but does not help as much in terms of your specific goal pace. I sort of think about it like cars (which makes no sense, since I know nothing of cars). Pfitz is trying to modify his car to make its top speed higher, even though it will spend most of its time driving 65 mph. Whereas the Hansons are thinking if the car is going to spend most of its time at 65 mph, then let's modify it to support that, and not some hypothetical top speed.

                                 

                                That profile pic is pretty much proves you are female. However, my profile pic, while proves that I am male, does not disprove that I am a green smashy monster.