Sub-4 Marathon Group

December Donuts (Read 563 times)

    QOTD - I forgot to add my .2 cents. Not sure if this is intended for marathon only but i am yet to make it to the starting line of a marathon sooooo, mine would be the Houston Half Marathon & Relay because of the preparedenes I came to the race with. it left me with a sense of accomplishment and helped eliminate any doubt of my hopes for progress. My PR was a mute point because it was a training run.

    PR's : HM 1:51:15  -  5K 21:27

     

     


    Trail Monster

      Thanks for all the birthday wishes!

       

      i see we're not the only ones with some awful weather. I checked the trail yesterday and it was still buried so its been treadmill all week for me. Since its a cutback week it hasn't been so bad. Ran 4 today at 9:29 average. It included 6 x 200m at 7:30 pace. I puked on the third one but felt fine for the last three. Weird!

      2013 races:

      3/17 Shamrock Marathon

      4/20 North Coast 24 Hour

      7/27 Burning RIver 100M

      8/24 Baker 50M

      10/5 Oil Creek (distance to be determined)

       

      My Blog

       

      Brands I Heart:

      FitFluential

      INKnBURN

      Altra Zero Drop


      Smashy!!!

        Interesting.  I've asked this question of a few people so far and for the most part everyone agrees that in training I should use the McMillian pace.  But you seem more familiar with the book and what Hanson intended.  Now I want to go re-read these sections this weekend.  My first MP run is next Thursday and I'm already worried about it.

         

        It seems kind of unlikely to me that you will know your exact marathon pace at the beginning of the training cycle.  And if it's that touchy that 10 seconds off makes a difference...what if I choose wrong?

         

         

         

        I guess to me it makes no sense to do all your training at and around 8:30, and then to race at 8:45. If you do the 18 weeks at 8:30, then race at 8:30. If you are going to race at 8:45, then do the 18 weeks at 8:45.

         

        As far as, how realistic it is to choose your goal at the start of training. For me, it's very realistic. I think most of know what we can run, and where our training needs to be. And then we go visit a soothsayer named McMillan who tells us we can run such and such a time, which fills our heads with fantasies about outsmarting the Marathon gods, and somehow running the race 15 minutes faster than our capabilities (then the gods punish us by making us death march). You've said it yourself, you think an 8:45ish pace is realistic. So train around that time. Incidentally, this is why they don't emphasize tune up races. They think you should know going into training, so that you can use training with the blindfolds off. Why wait until tune up races to choose your goal, thereby potentially wasting the past 18 weeks? From what I understand, the Hansons tell their elites what their goals will be, and say to hell with tune up races, and caculators etc. They look at their runner and say, you will run 2:30 and train around that time, even though your half says you "can" run 2:25.

         

        As far as, choosing wrong. It doesn't resolve the unknowable factor by basing your goal on a tune up race at the end of the cycle. What if you choose wrong then? What if your 26.2 fitness is not a simple extrapolation of your 13.1 fitness (but 10 seconds slower)? In fact, I've seen many people choose wrong based on this tune-up method. They have all this training, and then someone says, "Go for X time," and then they respond, "But McMillan says..." to which the others respond, "Yadda, yadda, fitness, yadda, yadda, bonk" (because honestly that's how it sounds to them), to which they say, "I'll listen to my body!" And then come back with a death march RR. In my view, you, Onemile, have not chosen wrong. You, knowing yourself, have said you can hold a 8:45 pace. Okay. Now train around that pace. The Hansons give you the caveat, however, that if you get into those Strength, long Tempos, and 16 milers, and 8:45 is just too easy, then you are free to choose a more ambitious goal.

         

        I think choosing to do it the Hansons way does mean willing to live with leaving some time on the course. Okay, so you think you can hold 8:45, you train around it, you then go and nail every mile split in the race at 8:45, and then by mile 23, you are feeling so good, you start hammering some 8:30s, and then sprint to the finish. Looking back, with the afterglow of the race, you think to yourself, "I think I just left some time on the course! I think I could've... I should've... Potential... fitness..." Doing Hansons I think means accepting this possibility. But it is choosing this worst case scenario over the alternative of, "I blew up at mile 18, and death marched the last 8, and high fived some four year old, which gave me the courage to at least finish..." But the Hansons also have a long term perspective. Now that you have that race under your belt, you've got evidence and data to choose your next goal for the next race.

        PRs: 21:35 (5K); 1:46:46 (HM); 4:30:46 (FM)

        nachosgrande


          Happy Birthday Banshee!

           

          Yesterday was a rest day.  I plan on running 4 or 5 today during lunch.

           

          Cbus - Not sure if you caught last night's game (I hope not) but it was a miserable experience.  We got destroyed in all phases of the game.  Plus it was cold and the beers were $11.  Ended up leaving at the end of the 3rd quarter.  Came home to a bit of a surprise.  Opened the door and my wife's asleep on the couch next to a positive pregnancy test.  Looks like number 2 for us is on the way.  Smile


          Smashy!!!

            Onemile, I just want to add, sorry if I'm making you doubt yourself. I'm just telling you the way I understand the book, and how to apply it. If others are telling you to use the McMillan paces, and that's what you want to do, then I encourage you to do that, and I'm still gonna cheer you on. (Incidentally, I don't think you have any cause to doubt yourself or to be confused. You think you can hold an 8:45 pace, and I think you can too, which is why I'm saying to use that pace during training.)

            PRs: 21:35 (5K); 1:46:46 (HM); 4:30:46 (FM)


            Smashy!!!

              Nachos, that's AWESOME (about the pregnancy, not the game). Congrats!

              PRs: 21:35 (5K); 1:46:46 (HM); 4:30:46 (FM)

              onemile


                The people who advised that I run the pace runs at 8:30 didn't advise me to run the marathon then at 8:45. It's more like, use 8:30 for now and then do a tune up race to get your actual MP 4-6 weeks out.

                 

                At the beginning of the summer,  when I started half marathon training, I was hoping to run a half marathon at an 8:45 pace.  I ended up running the race at an 8:07 pace at the end of the training cycle.  So it's hard for me to know if 8:45 is right.  It sounds right now. But who knows how the cycle will go and if I'll continue to improve or if I won't improve or what.

                 

                Maybe Hansons isn't for me then, I don't know.  But I've already started it so... Big grin  8:30 sounds hard to me.  But I haven't tried it yet to know if I can pull it off.  (in training that is).

                 

                And I plan on doubting and second guessing myself for the next four months... but that's part of the fun of it I guess.

                 

                 

                I guess to me it makes no sense to do all your training at and around 8:30, and then to race at 8:45. If you do the 18 weeks at 8:30, then race at 8:30. If you are going to race at 8:45, then do the 18 weeks at 8:45.

                 

                As far as, how realistic it is to choose your goal at the start of training. For me, it's very realistic. I think most of know what we can run, and where our training needs to be. And then we go visit a soothsayer named McMillan who tells us we can run such and such a time, which fills our heads with fantasies about outsmarting the Marathon gods, and somehow running the race 15 minutes faster than our capabilities (then the gods punish us by making us death march). You've said it yourself, you think an 8:45ish pace is realistic. So train around that time. Incidentally, this is why they don't emphasize tune up races. They think you should know going into training, so that you can use training with the blindfolds off. Why wait until tune up races to choose your goal, thereby potentially wasting the past 18 weeks? From what I understand, the Hansons tell their elites what their goals will be, and say to hell with tune up races, and caculators etc. They look at their runner and say, you will run 2:30 and train around that time, even though your half says you "can" run 2:25.

                 

                As far as, choosing wrong. It doesn't resolve the unknowable factor by basing your goal on a tune up race at the end of the cycle. What if you choose wrong then? What if your 26.2 fitness is not a simple extrapolation of your 13.1 fitness (but 10 seconds slower)? In fact, I've seen many people choose wrong based on this tune-up method. They have all this training, and then someone says, "Go for X time," and then they respond, "But McMillan says..." to which the others respond, "Yadda, yadda, fitness, yadda, yadda, bonk" (because honestly that's how it sounds to them), to which they say, "I'll listen to my body!" And then come back with a death march RR. In my view, you, Onemile, have not chosen wrong. You, knowing yourself, have said you can hold a 8:45 pace. Okay. Now train around that pace. The Hansons give you the caveat, however, that if you get into those Strength, long Tempos, and 16 milers, and 8:45 is just too easy, then you are free to choose a more ambitious goal.

                 

                I think choosing to do it the Hansons way does mean willing to live with leaving some time on the course. Okay, so you think you can hold 8:45, you train around it, you then go and nail every mile split in the race at 8:45, and then by mile 23, you are feeling so good, you start hammering some 8:30s, and then sprint to the finish. Looking back, with the afterglow of the race, you think to yourself, "I think I just left some time on the course! I think I could've... I should've... Potential... fitness..." Doing Hansons I think means accepting this possibility. But it is choosing this worst case scenario over the alternative of, "I blew up at mile 18, and death marched the last 8, and high fived some four year old, which gave me the courage to at least finish..." But the Hansons also have a long term perspective. Now that you have that race under your belt, you've got evidence and data to choose your next goal for the next race.


                White Lightning

                  Before you guys all say wow, way to tough it out, there were other runners out there with less gear and looked like they were in a much better zone than me.  Remember, I've lived in Florida and Las Vegas for the last 11 years, my first winter in a long time.  But don't worry, I will have my time to shine.  When everyone is complaining about 100% humidity, dew points, hurricanes, etc... I'll be in my 70's and enjoying myself.

                   

                  QOTD - Well I only ran two races in 2012.  My Half last February which was a disastrous finish because of ITBS, or my full I just ran.  Not happy with either so the lesser of two evils would be my full.  Even though I totally underperformed its the first race i've ever made it though without some sort of injury.  2013 is going to be a whole new animal, bring it on.

                   

                  Banshee - Happy belated B-day.

                   

                  Rollcast - Yeah, that's how I felt.  Weighed my gear this morning and it was 9 pounds

                   

                  Nachos - Congrats

                   

                  Cbus/Onemile - I'm still confused on my paces.  Their chart has a 4:00 marathon goal with a 8:03 mm 5k pace but my 5k pace is quicker than that, that's more along the lines of my 10k pace by what I've done in training.  I've got a 1:49 HM training run that says I should be running a 3:47 marathon.  So I'm picking the 4:00 as my goal, but do I still run the speed workouts by their chart or by what I can actually run if I was running a race?  Do I get the proper fitness benefits if I run the paces slower than what I'm capable of because of the MP goal I've set?  I've got a half planned during week 9 to double check my fitness (that's our first "normalish" weather half of the year) but I'm not supposed to run that all out right?

                  Play the Game Hard!


                  Bad Ass

                    What?  I have not posted here today?  No donut for me.  A shakeout run or SRD for me.  QOTD:  Although the Berlin Marathon was a good day, my favorite race was the Freedom Park 5K race, the first time I broke a pre asthma time.

                     

                    be back in a few!

                    Damaris, Marathon Maniac, Ultra Runner

                    Next:  RnR Country Music Half Marathon

                    Blog

                    "The most powerful weapon on earth is the human soul on fire."

                      Nacho -  thats cause for a celebration for sure....number two in the hopper

                       

                      CBus - are you an engineer? Great explanation, I will be back in a few months for a refresher (really though) as i start to question training like i do for every other prep cycle in any race.

                       

                      Banshee - puke, what a fun word

                       

                      JoshL - "2013 is going to be a whole new animal, bring it on"....thats what I am talking about right there.

                      PR's : HM 1:51:15  -  5K 21:27

                       

                       


                      Bad Ass

                        I am so ready for 2013. 2012 sucked big time.  It must end and let us begin anew.

                        Damaris, Marathon Maniac, Ultra Runner

                        Next:  RnR Country Music Half Marathon

                        Blog

                        "The most powerful weapon on earth is the human soul on fire."


                        Rusk Runner

                          QOTD - Favorite race for 2012 was the Indianapolis Marathon.  Good scenery, good food, well organized, home town feel to the wholw thing.  But mostly I liked it because from the time I made the drive to Indy to the time I toed the starting line, I felt like I was ready to do what I had trained to do.  I knew that I was going to break my goal of 3:50 and that gave me a good amount of confidence and just made the race more enjoyable all the way.

                           

                          I can race 30 deg weather in shorts and a singlet but I cant train with that.  Figure that one out.

                           

                          Nachos - CONGRATS!!!  Funny how a what we might call a miserable game is all put into perspective when set next to the truly important things in life.  What could be more wonderful than another child?!  I am assuming you woke up DW to celebrate?

                           

                          Roll - Yes indeed, when you reduce the heel drop by 8 or so mm you will need a transition period.  Your calves will remind you of this if you try to do the change all at once.  I did it slowly and my calves still complained.

                           

                          FINALLY got outside for a run.  Felt a little rough on the initial hills but it was offset by the good feeling I had looking at all of the snow in the woods.  10.5 miles, 8:48 pace.  HR was fine considering the hills.  I get to start out the new year with a tempo run (9 miles w/5 @ tempo).  Should be fun.  Is no one doing Pfitz with me this season?  Whats up with that?

                          Seriously, I am feeling much better at week 4 of Pfitz this time around as compared to last.  Even with the faster pacing, my legs are feeling right and I am attacking the runs with renewed confidence.  Should everything go well with my next race I will have to decide to either go with the advanced Hansons plan or to contact Luke at Hansons and have him come up with a custom plan based on my expectations for my Fall race.

                          PRs...5K - 20:36, 4mile - 26:15, 13.1 - 1:32, 26.2 - 3:42

                          Just Run!!!


                          Smashy!!!

                             

                            Cbus/Onemile - I'm still confused on my paces.  Their chart has a 4:00 marathon goal with a 8:03 mm 5k pace but my 5k pace is quicker than that, that's more along the lines of my 10k pace by what I've done in training.  I've got a 1:49 HM training run that says I should be running a 3:47 marathon.  So I'm picking the 4:00 as my goal, but do I still run the speed workouts by their chart or by what I can actually run if I was running a race?  Do I get the proper fitness benefits if I run the paces slower than what I'm capable of because of the MP goal I've set?  I've got a half planned during week 9 to double check my fitness (that's our first "normalish" weather half of the year) but I'm not supposed to run that all out right?

                             

                            Josh, I agree the terms 5K and 10K pace are confusing. Better would have been to call it Speed A and Speed B. But you pick your GMP, and then use the paces that align in the chart with that chosen pace. Yes, you still get the benefits. In fact, as I read the book, you only get the benefits if you run at those paces. Remember, the workouts are there to support your GMP, not your overall speed or something else. The idea is to sustain, say, 9:00 over 26.2 miles, you need to do a bunch of specific work around that pace. So even if you can run a 5K race faster, that faster pace is not targeting the systems that support the 9:00 pace. Also keep in mind that unlike an actual 5k race, where you can go all out because you're gonna take the next few days to recover, the Speed workouts are just workouts, and you need to recover in time to do a Tempo on Thurs. and a LR on Sat.

                            PRs: 21:35 (5K); 1:46:46 (HM); 4:30:46 (FM)

                            Dreamn


                              QOTD:  I'm going to have to cosign with mdawg! The Chicago Marathon was my favorite race.  It was my first true destination race and absolutely impeccable in its organization.  It was amazing to meet so many marathoners from all over the world and the crowd support is just amazing.  I'm slightly sad to be choosing to miss out on it next year Smile.  I also got a PR there, no bonus points for me, hehe.  But I PR'ed at every distance this year :-).  2012 was a great year for me.

                               

                              6.32 miles @ 8:15 pace today.  A little faster than I wanted but I ran with a speedy friend (though I think she was trying to keep pace with me) and it felt comfortable.

                               

                              Nice pic, Cbus.  For the longest time, I thought you were a woman.  Then, something you posted made me think you were a man, then I thought you were a woman again, then you finally posted something about DW and I was glad to have it all sorted out Smile.

                              Dreamn


                                Congrats to #2 on the way, Nachos!