Sub-4 Marathon Group

December Donuts (Read 566 times)

Bad Ass

    Now I feel like Banshee.  Can anybody see me?  Sniff!


    Who's racing this weekend?  I want to know all the details so I can live through you!



    "The most powerful weapon on earth is the human soul on fire."

    It's always fucking hot in Miami!

    Ball of Fury

      Now I feel like Banshee.  Can anybody see me?  Sniff!


      Who's racing this weekend?  I want to know all the details so I can live through you!

       DH and I are running a 5-mile trail race (yeah, not very exciting, I know) that is the first in a series of 6.  If you run at least 4 of the 6, you qualify for the points championship so I am hoping to place top 3 in points this year!

      PRs:  5K 22:59, 10K 46:54,HM: 1:51:15

      Rusk Runner

        I have alot of time on my hands at the moment and I talk too much so I apologize in advance....


        The way I read Pfitz, endurance is worked on through the entire program.  During the week MLR, longish recoveries, and the weekend long run all work your endurance.  LTs are generally every 2 weeks building in distance for the first two months, which also build endurance hopefully raise LT.  GMP runs are sprinkled in throughout.  Quality is generally followed with and easier week to facilitate recovery.  VO2 is towards the end of the cycle which has been endorsed by many others i.e. T. Noakes.  It contains all the aspects of most advanced or intermediate plans that I have looked at.


        I have read and like the looks of Hansons plans.  I fully intend on using a Hansons plan next summer.  If I remember correctly however, Hansons advocates as much quality work as Pfitz, and it contains as much, if not more overall mileage.  One of the reasons I decided not to delve into Hansons over the winter is that the combination of the faster work in dark and adverse conditions didnt seem prudent.  I also felt that I would like to build more endurance under Pfitz before I started pushing more quality with Hansons.


        I realize the success of Higdon, but I disagree with jamming most of the mileage into the weekend.  I did not look too much past his novice programs so I may actually be wrong.


        In all its really about "6" one way and "half a dozen the other".  Pfitz is highly regarded by a large audience and has proven results.  Hansons has proven results and seeems to be talked about more and more since the release of their training manual.  All of us will mostly find out the value of a program once we live through it.  We should also know enough about ourselves to bow out of a plan if it gets to be too much to handle, or step up if we are not making gains.

        PRs...5K - 20:36, 4mile - 26:15, 13.1 - 1:32, 26.2 - 3:42

        Just Run!!!


          Now I feel like Banshee.  Can anybody see me?  Sniff!


          Who's racing this weekend?  I want to know all the details so I can live through you!


          Not me.  No races until 2013 for me. 


          Sometimes when I click on threads, I expect it to take me to the first unread post.  But I'm noticing that it skips several posts and I don't realize it until other people are referencing responses that I didn't read.  This might explain why nobody responds sometimes :-).


            I was debating between using Pfitz 18/70 and Hansons Advanced and what it came down to for me, was that I don't think that I can handle 20 mile runs plus speedwork plus high mileage.  I feel like I can do the higher mileage and the speedwork but 20 milers beat me up a lot.  So I decided to give Hansons a try - the mileage is pretty similar (I have the plan in my training log if you want to view it) but it's more evenly distributed throughout the week.  I start it in a week and a half.


              Hi all, I'm pretty certain that I am going to focus Halfs this spring and try to add some zip to my old guy paces.  I suspect that training specifically for a half is a lot different than for a full, especially when endurance for the half is a complete non-issue (as I suspect is the case for all Donuts).  So, my question is: Is there such a thing as a HM Training Plan for Marathon Runners?  If you've done some sort of plan for a Half just to gain speed or improve hill running when endurance was a complete non-issue, what plan was it and how did it go?




                You read my mind Bago.  I was going to ask a similar question today.  Looking forward to the answers. 


                  You read my mind Bago.  I was going to ask a similar question today.  Looking forward to the answers. 

                   You channeled your thoughts through me.  I am a mere empty vessel, a conduit, at your bidding.


                    I used the Pfitz 15k to HM Plan B this summer and it worked out great for me.  It brought my 5k time down from 25:3x to 22:46 and my HM time from 1:59: xx to 1:46: xx.  I did run about 10 mpw over the schedule (40-60mpw instead of the 30-50 on the schedule).


                    I've also heard good things about the Ryan Hall HM plan.


                      Bago and Dreamn, I'm in the same boat! I was just looking at Ryan Hall's plan, but I'm a little weirded out about running by time, rather than distance... especially when Ryan Hall can run a whole lot farther than I can in 90 minutes.  Where would I find the Pfitz plan? Do I have to buy another book?

                      My PR's! 5K: 21:54 | 10M: 1:16:55 | HM: 1:43:40 | Full: 3:51:56

                      2013: BQ or bust!



                        The Pfitz plan is in his book "Road Racing for Serious Runners".  It's a nice plan - he gives you the weekly mileage, LR and MLR and the speedwork and you arrange your own week.  The book has a lot of good information and is worth buying.

                        Trail Monster

                          Damaris - I believe I said congrats on the Beginners forum and on your FB page. If I am wrong, I apologize! And congrats again! I will not be racing again until New Year's Eve. DH and I are doing are traditional 5k at 3PM on NYE. I'm kind of hoping I might PR despite a tough course since I've added mileage and speed work.


                          indiana - I haven't seen the Hanson plans. I need to look at the book before I can compare. I just know the Pfitz plans are way to heavy for me personally and I already have done 5 marathons and 6 ultras. Based on that I assume they are for more biomechanically efficient and generally healthier runners than me. And since my times place me squarely mid-pack usually I would therefore think Pfitz is not a good plan for most middle to back of the pack runners.


                          Dreamn - I noticed that. I have to scroll back to find my last post and then read from there.


                          Onemile - I'm excited to see the Hanson's plan and how you like it. I think I'll buy the book for myself for my birthday.


                          bagopux - I would use an advanced HM plan that keeps mileage close to the base you already have but adds more speed work.


                          Me: I finished my steady state run in 1:10:15 with 7.25 miles/9:41 avg pace. Pretty happy with that. Decided to cool down with .75 more miles to make it an even 8 for the day. Trying to motivate myself to do homework but I have no willpower right now.

                          2013 races:

                          3/17 Shamrock Marathon

                          4/20 North Coast 24 Hour

                          7/27 Burning RIver 100M

                          8/24 Baker 50M

                          10/5 Oil Creek (distance to be determined)


                          My Blog


                          Brands I Heart:



                          Altra Zero Drop


                            So I looked at the Higdon Intermediate Half plan and the part of one of the Pfitz Half plans that you can see from the amazon 'look inside.'  They both look pretty simple and straightforward: Keep increasing your long runs, and rotate some LT, HMP, VO2 Max and/or hill work during the week.  Not a lot of magic there.  They don't seem to operate in macrocylces like MP plans do.  Might just sketch something out based on what I think I need to work on.


                            Could not find the Ryan Hall plan.  Anyone have a link, or is it a book?


                              Morning all.  Wow, you guys are chatty this morning, there are already two new pages!  Apologies, but I won't be able to do shouts for everyone as I need to get back to work shortly.


                              For those that are curious about Hansons, I'd definitely buy the book, it's available on Amazon and isn't too expensive.  It explains the principles of the plan really well.  Like One Mile, I'm using it for my spring marathon and it is in my log if you want to take a look.  I've modified it slightly to account for some tune-up races and I've also reduced the mileage in the taper weeks, as it looked a little high to me.  The main reason I chose it is I'd like to run 6 days a week and be more consistent with mileage throughout the plan.  I do think the speed/strength work in the plan is a little less intense than Pfitz.  For example, with speed intervals (which correspond to Pfitz VO2), while Pfitz uses 5K pace, Hansons gives a range between 5K and 10K and suggests less experienced runners might want to stick closer to 10K pace if they are not recovering fully.  For the strength intervals, which are things like 3 x 2 miles (and would correspond somewhat with Pfitz LT runs), the suggested pace is GMP - 10s rather than 15K - HMP, so slightly slower.  Anyway, I start the plan the first week of January, so you'll be able to see how it goes.


                              Bagopux - I know at one time the Ryan Hall plan was on RWOL somewhere, but not sure where to find it.


                              Switched my RD to last night instead of tonight as when I got home I realized I had no clean running gear to wear.  Several loads of laundry plus some other chores later, it was 7:30 and I hadn't even had dinner yet.  Will run tonight instead, weather is better anyway, no rain. 

                              PRs: 47:54 (10K); 1:46:36 (HM); 3:50:52 (FM)

                              Recovering from injured knee (PCL/Lateral Meniscus)

                                This thread really bops along- I can't keep up with you guys!


                                Dreamn- thanks for reminding me. I searched out the thread and reread a few pages, happy memories. Since that race I have been scared to really put it all on the line, risk everything- but it was a heck of a race.


                                Pfitz works well for me because there is little really slow running, more at "steady" pace than "recovery" pace, and that suits me.

                                I thought he explained the reasoning behind the plan well, and it fitted in with what I had read in Noakes. I think the basic building blocks for a good half are:


                                1) Lots of long runs, past race distance, maybe 15-18 miles.

                                2) Hard tempo runs, 5k one week, 8 miles the next week, alternate them.

                                3) A semi long run each week, with either a fast finish or several strides at the end.

                                4) The rest is easy miles.

                                I do not think you can do a "hurry up " plan and get ready in a few weeks, all of this just my opinion, of course.

                                PBs since age 60:  5k- 24:36, 10k - 47:17. Half Marathon- 1:42:41.

                                                                    10 miles (unofficial) 1:16:44.