Sub-4 Marathon Group

Hanson & Pfitz Discussion (Read 381 times)


Bad Ass

    I was thinking of the advanced, since the beginner's is too low mileage from what I'm used to.  That's if I don't hire Walter (which I am probably going to do) for Chicago.  After that, I want to give it a try depending on my asthma.  Speedwork makes me cough and phlegm for days so if it affects my other runs too much, it's not a good plan for me.

     

    Thanks for the tips.  I remember their post in FB with suggestions on how to cut it but I cannot find it now.

    Damaris, Marathon Maniac, Ultra Runner

    Next:  RnR Country Music Half Marathon

    Blog

    "The most powerful weapon on earth is the human soul on fire."

      I may have missed this somewhere but is the Hanson plan 18 or 20 weeks?

      PR's : HM 1:51:15  -  5K 21:27

       

       


      Ball of Fury

        I may have missed this somewhere but is the Hanson plan 18 or 20 weeks?

         

        The plans in the book are 18 weeks.

        PRs:  5K 22:59, 10K 46:54,HM: 1:51:15

          I may have missed this somewhere but is the Hanson plan 18 or 20 weeks?

           

          I'm using the purchased plan, 20 weeks 60 - 80 mpw plan for Chicago.

          jedigunnie26.2


          BQ in 2013

            using same plan for Philly.

             

             

            I'm using the purchased plan, 20 weeks 60 - 80 mpw plan for Chicago.

            PR's - 5K - 20:15 (2013) | 10K - 45:14 (2011)  | 13.1 - 1:34:40 (2013)  | 26.2 - 3:47:47 (2012)

             

            2013 Goals - 3000 miles (940m May'13) | sub20 5k | sub 43 10K  | sub1:35 13.1 | sub 3:15 26.2

             

            2013

            Saginaw 5k - 1/19/13 - 20:15 PR

            Chambersburg Half Marathon - 3/9/13 - 1:36:22 PR

            Frederick Half Marathon - 5/5/13 - 1:34:40 PR

             

            Up Next:

            Shippensburg Fair 5k - 7/27/13

            RnR Philadelphia Half Marathon - 9/15/13

            Philadelphia Marathon - 11/17/13

            DetroitTigerFan


              Hello - I'm looking at my pace planning for this summer and had a question on Pfitz interpretation :

               

              The book says long run pace should be 10-20% slower than goal marathon race pace

               

              So, if my goal is 3:50 way out in Oct (although i'm not capable of this yet) then my long run pace should be identical through all of the 18 weeks, right  (since my goal race pace has not changed)? am I reading this right ?  It doesn't sound right - it feels like the paces should get faster as your current performance / fitness improves during the process.  For those on Pfitz, how have you applied this statement in your pace planning ? (or how have you interpreted it,etc?)

               

              Any thoughts?  thanks for any help !

              PB's     10K 47:15 (9/13)     HM 1:45 (9/13)     M 3:57 (10/13)

              Running Blog   http://davesdigitaldestinations.blogspot.com/

              bagopux


                DTF -- Pfitz gives you a range for a reason.  there are a lot of factors that van vary your long pace.  i did pfitz last summer and for me, doing 18 miles when it was 85F + 90% RH meant slowing to the low end of the range or even lower if there were some hills (which was always).  but when the weather started to cool, and I was in better shape, i was up at the faster end of the range.  for all runs, and long runs in particular, i think you really do have to take in account fitness levels.  you lose a lot of benefit of the long run by going too fast for your fitness level.  at least that's my understanding.  i've been doing this for a while, but that doesn't necessarily make me an expert.  i would suggest heavily taking into account perceived effort level at the beginning.  on long runs, your breathing should not be approaching the 2:2 ratio that's common for tempo/LT runs.  it should be much more relaxed.  3:3 or slower.  use the talk test too.  as you go along in your training, your pace should improve during the long run although your perceived effort level stays the same.  if, a couple of months out from the race, the long run paces have not improved to put you closer to pfitz's 10% (while still maintaining relaxed breathing, that is, don't force it), then you might have to re-think your race goal.

                 

                and now here's the short answer: don't overthink it, but also never force the pace on the long run

                DetroitTigerFan


                  bago - thanks for the feedback. I agree with everything you're saying on effort level and the ranges.  Like you said -  it easy for to overthink this stuff like a scientific formula or something - lol.   What's throwing me for the loop isn't the slow/fast range decision - it's the fact that the book literally says long run pace should be run as a % range of  "goal" marathon pace. So, the 10-20% factor is not based off of where you could finish a  marathon today, but 10-20% of your goal marathon pace (if i'm reading this right)

                   

                  Like yourself, I did pfitz last year. At that time, I interpreted the book last year to mean - what can I run a marathon today at? ok - take that pace and 10-20% is the target for my long run today. This seemed to work.  As I re-read the book, the fact it says it should be based on the "goal" marathon pace, makes me wonder if I ran it correctly last year?

                   

                  I just want to make sure i'm staying true to the plan as I re-read the book. There's lots of little inefficiencies I had last year - like let's say 10 miles with 4 at MP where my run was interrupted by stopping at intersections, where I may have been short cutting the plan by taking too many rest stops.  This year, I want to be more disciplined to the plan and see if there is any incremental benefit, etc..

                  PB's     10K 47:15 (9/13)     HM 1:45 (9/13)     M 3:57 (10/13)

                  Running Blog   http://davesdigitaldestinations.blogspot.com/

                  bagopux


                    DTF -- let's go big picture:  the book is called 'advanced marathoning'.  not 'novice' or 'intermediate.'  i don't think the author is expecting that you will be making significant jumps in fitness levels from beginning to end.  at least that's how i read it.  i would read the "10-20% from goal" guideline in that context.  therefore, i think that if you are expecting a significant increase in fitness level from beginning to end, you might have to make some adjustments.  i guess in addition to not overthinking things, i'd also suggest not putting rigid faith into a one-size-pfitz-all program.

                    SprinklesRunner


                    Whippet

                      In terms of Pfitz pacing, I'm too lazy to do the math equivalents for a 8:23 goal marathon pace (it starts at 8:00 hmpf), so I pulled the paces off McMillan, and they're only slightly more aggressive, so I'm going to use those- I think it should be ok...no?

                      13.1: 1:45 | 26.2: 3:55


                      Bad Ass

                        I wouldn't use McMillan's paces for the LRs as too aggressive = less endurance.

                         

                        In terms of Pfitz pacing, I'm too lazy to do the math equivalents for a 8:23 goal marathon pace (it starts at 8:00 hmpf), so I pulled the paces off McMillan, and they're only slightly more aggressive, so I'm going to use those- I think it should be ok...no?

                        Damaris, Marathon Maniac, Ultra Runner

                        Next:  RnR Country Music Half Marathon

                        Blog

                        "The most powerful weapon on earth is the human soul on fire."

                        jedigunnie26.2


                        BQ in 2013

                          McMillian ok to use if you don't use the fast end of the ranges unless that is type of LR you're looking for. I've started doing my LRs at hanson LR pace or pretty close to it. My LR this past week week had avg pace of 8:04 and figured LR pace for 7:59-8:00 so I am close enough. Hanson wants you you treat LR as a workout and run at a moderate pace, but goes against other plans of keeping LR slower unless you have some MP miles in there.

                           

                          In terms of Pfitz pacing, I'm too lazy to do the math equivalents for a 8:23 goal marathon pace (it starts at 8:00 hmpf), so I pulled the paces off McMillan, and they're only slightly more aggressive, so I'm going to use those- I think it should be ok...no?

                          PR's - 5K - 20:15 (2013) | 10K - 45:14 (2011)  | 13.1 - 1:34:40 (2013)  | 26.2 - 3:47:47 (2012)

                           

                          2013 Goals - 3000 miles (940m May'13) | sub20 5k | sub 43 10K  | sub1:35 13.1 | sub 3:15 26.2

                           

                          2013

                          Saginaw 5k - 1/19/13 - 20:15 PR

                          Chambersburg Half Marathon - 3/9/13 - 1:36:22 PR

                          Frederick Half Marathon - 5/5/13 - 1:34:40 PR

                           

                          Up Next:

                          Shippensburg Fair 5k - 7/27/13

                          RnR Philadelphia Half Marathon - 9/15/13

                          Philadelphia Marathon - 11/17/13

                          DetroitTigerFan


                            Hello all - I have a Pfitz schedule conflict and wanted to get your feedback please:

                             

                            My issue - I will be unavailable to run the Friday/Saturday/Sunday run of week 10 (where 1 is race day). I have some plans that will involve really really long days. I won't be able to run before in the morning.  At most, I will be able to run 6-8 miles in the evening. Thanks for any thoughts !

                             

                            Per Pfitz 18/55

                             

                            Week 11 10 9  
                            M 10 7 6  
                            T 4 12 14  
                            W 11   6  
                            TH   10    
                            FR 7 5 6  
                            SA 18 20 16  
                            SU        
                            Totals 50 54 48 152

                             

                            Option 1 - rotate 10 and 9 - do MP miles as part of 20 miler instead of planned 16 miler

                             

                            Week 11 10 9  
                            M 10 14 7  
                            T 4   12  
                            W 11 6 10  
                            TH   16    
                            FR 7 6 5  
                            SA 18   20  
                            SU   6    
                            Totals 50 48 54

                            152

                             

                            Option 2 - pull ahead a run into week 11

                             

                            Week 11 10 9  
                            M 10 14 7  
                            T 4 6 12  
                            W 11   10  
                            TH   16    
                            FR 7 6 5  
                            SA 18   20  
                            SU 6      
                            Totals 56 42 54 152

                            PB's     10K 47:15 (9/13)     HM 1:45 (9/13)     M 3:57 (10/13)

                            Running Blog   http://davesdigitaldestinations.blogspot.com/

                            bagopux


                              dtf - If it were me, I'd be leery of doing the mp in the 20 miler.  that would be a lot of hard work for a long run at the end of a 54 mile week.  your potential for injury goes up.  looking at what you've got there, i'd use option 2 but take sunday off in week 11 and maybe do 4 miles on wednesday of week 10 just to balance out the weekly mileage better.

                              cmb4314


                                I agree with Bago - that 16 w/12 @ MP kicked my butt - I'd keep the MP work in the 16 miler.  4 more miles tacked onto that is going to be rough, particularly this time of year when it is going to be hot outside.

                                 

                                If you do that, I'd think either option should work just fine.

                                My wildly inconsistent PRs:

                                5k: 24:36 (10/20/12)  

                                10k: 52:01 (4/28/12)  

                                HM: 1:50:09 (10/27/12)

                                Marathon: 4:19:11 (10/2/2011)