Ultra Runners

1

Different kind of training... (Read 532 times)

    Okay... so, I've done two 100's, and sucked at both. Kettle Moraine was better, but my wet feet slowed me way down. Tahoe was constantly up or down, and that gave me tendon issues early in the race. I was walking way too much on both.

     

    Somehow, I haven't been scared off of these things. In fact, it's only been driving me to do better. 

     

    So, I'm going to sign up and run the Graveyard 100 at the Outer Banks next March, assuming I can work out the schedule. It's amazingly flat, and it's all on asphalt. That's my normal running surface, and I can do my long runs much, much easier without having to drive 1 to 3 hours to hit decent trails of any distance.

     

    I wanted to get some advice on training. Normally, I would try to maintain about 70/week, some higher, some lower. This would be 6 days at 5 to 10 or 12 miles, and one long weekend run. I tried to get above 20 at least every other week for the long run, and would do 30+ once a month for 5 or 6 months before the race. 

     

    Any tweaks to that for a flat 100 on asphalt? Back to back long runs? 

     

    I'm only doing this one gunning for time. I know I can suffer through just about anything, but I finally want to have a good race. 

    xor


      >> It's amazingly flat, and it's all on asphalt.

       

      Ouch.  I can only give you perspective from the 50 miler standpoint.  Of my 50s, the ones on road with minimal hills are among my fastest... when approached properly... but they are also among the hurtiest.  Because the whole thing is runnable and the same muscles get worked in the same ways and the feet get pounded.  I can imagine that this is amplified exponentially in a 100.  And when approached improperly, they can be very not fun. Improperly? That whole "don't go out too fast" thing from marathoning rears its head big time when the ultra is flat roads.

       

      Good luck.

       


      Kill

        I gotta think that would hurt, too.

         

        Why not consider one of the "easier" 100's like Rocky Racoon or Umstead? I'm sure there are others, but those are the two I know of.

        Passion is a rather frightening thing because if you have passion you don't know where it will take you.

         

        When it’s all said and done, will you have said more than you’ve done?

          My wife is running the Rocky Raccoon 50 and I'm pacing a friend of mine. Then, Umstead is full.

           

          I've done up to 45 on asphalt. Yes, it was tiring, but I don't know that it was significantly different than trail... definitely easier. My ankles tolerate the asphalt a lot better. The whole flatness, same muscle groups, etc, I get that. I don't know what to do other than replicate it in training.

           

          As for going out too fast, I plan on doing a 10/1 run/walk from the beginning.

            dspeer, I could have written almost the exact same post.  Being a flatlander as well, I'm finding it extremely difficult to train for a mountain ultra.

             

            The biggest hills near me are over an hour way and they are only 10's of feet high.  (actually there is a bridge that's about a half hour away that's about 100' tall but that's no fun).  I have not been able to find a way to replicate hilly race conditions.  (I'm actually calling umstead hilly)

             

            Your normal training plan sound great.  For the long runs, maybe you could work in some 50k / 50 mile / 100k races on similar conditions as you build up to the goal race. 

             

            I will say that even though I can't really train for the mountains, I do enjoy them.  The 31 and a half hours I spent on the trails at Tahoe were incredible.  My plan for next year is to race a local 100 in the winter with conditions I can train for, then find a mountain ultra somewhere in the summer and enjoy the day and night and most of the next day on the trail.


            Imminent Catastrophe

              Ouch I say. I feel worse after a road marathon than after a 50-mile trail run. But that's just me.

              Check out Lean Horse in South Dakota, it's on a nice soft rails-to-trails path and then hills are all nice and gradual. 

              "Able to function despite imminent catastrophe"

               "To obtain the air that angels breathe you must come to Tahoe"--Mark Twain

              "The most common question from potential entrants is 'I do not know if I can do this' to which I usually answer, 'that's the whole point'.--Paul Charteris, Tarawera Ultramarathon RD.

               

              √ Tahoe Rim Trail 100M 20/21 July 2013

              Boston Marathon 21 April 2014

              Tahoe Rim Trail 100M 19/20 July 2014

                I'll also add that I haven't given up on the harder races. In fact, I did pretty well on the climbing at Tahoe. The downhill running is what messed up my left foot (I posted a picture of it here somewhere).

                 

                I plan on entering the WS lottery, and if I don't get in, I may end up back at Tahoe.


                You'll ruin your knees!

                  My wife is running the Rocky Raccoon 50 and I'm pacing a friend of mine. Then, Umstead is full.

                   

                  I've done up to 45 on asphalt. Yes, it was tiring, but I don't know that it was significantly different than trail... definitely easier. My ankles tolerate the asphalt a lot better. The whole flatness, same muscle groups, etc, I get that. I don't know what to do other than replicate it in training.

                   

                  As for going out too fast, I plan on doing a 10/1 run/walk from the beginning.

                   A few things...

                   

                  At Rocky Raccoon, during the day before you start pacing, come on out to the DamNation aid station and hang out.  You will see your runner(s) more frequently there, as they go through DamNation twice per loop... I run DamNation and we will make you feel welcome!  If you have any questions about Rocky, please don't hesitate to ask...

                   

                  I think it is good that you are looking at doing walk breaks, but you might consider 25/5 instead of 10/1.  If you are nearing an aid station, don't be afraid to adjust so that you can take the walk break as you are leaving the station (while you stuff your face).  That way, you can focus on clothing/shoes/socks, hydration in the aid station and carry what you need to eat on the walk portion and eat while you are walking.  Regardless, PRACTICE WALKING, and walking fast!  With that many walk breaks, (I know this sounds silly), the transition from run to walk and walk to run can be pretty uncomfortable and it helps if you know what to expect.  Form is just as important in the walk as it is in the run... keep an upright posture, pretend you are being pulled by a rope attached to your chest... IT WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE!.  Don't think of the walk break as a rest, but a change of muscle groups... keep PURPOSE in your stride, use your arms. 

                   

                  Think about playing it really conservative in the beginning... consider a time target for the first 20 miles and set it pretty slow... not much faster than your goal pace for the whole race.  For example, if your goal pace is 24 hours, I would suggest you consider keeping your average pace for the first 20 miles at no faster than 13:30 (including all of your stops and walk breaks, of course).  That way, you leave something in the bank to keep from slowing to the death march during the night (assuming you are out there until after dark...). 

                   

                  You didn't mention anything about aid stations.  It helps to have a pretty good idea of what you will need when and plan for that specifically.  If you just load down a drop bag with a lot of things that you "might" need, well, then you spend time sifting through all that crap... (I call that stirring the drop bag).  If the conditions are uncertain, pack your drop bags with smaller bags.. label one "COLD" and the other "WARM".  Put food in another bag inside the drop bag so you can get right to it.  As you approach an AS, pre-plan on what you are going to do while in there and keep the time spent in the aid station to a minimum.  This can make a big difference toward a time goal.   

                   

                  Encourage the heck out of other runners!  Smile!  This will lift your mood, even when you don't feel like it... DO IT! 

                   

                  Thank EVERY volunteer, profusely!

                   

                  Best of luck, hope to meet you at Rocky.  Even if you don't make it out to DamNation to hang out... ask for Lynn(me) or Mike (Bonkin)  and say hi!  

                   

                   

                  I'll also add that I haven't given up on the harder races. In fact, I did pretty well on the climbing at Tahoe. The downhill running is what messed up my left foot (I posted a picture of it here somewhere).

                   

                  I plan on entering the WS lottery, and if I don't get in, I may end up back at Tahoe.

                   Cool!  If you don't make WS, you should consider BigHorn... AWESOME race!  Gives you another look at a great part of the country! 

                  ""...the truth that someday, you will go for your last run. But not today—today you got to run." - Matt Crownover (after Western States)


                     

                     

                     Cool!  If you don't make WS, you should consider BigHorn... AWESOME race!  Gives you another look at a great part of the country! 

                     

                    yeah... Bighorn is a great one!! 

                      I looked at Big Horn this year, but it's pretty tough to travel to. Flights into Sheridan are expensive, so I would need to fly into Denver and drive... and that sucks. 

                       

                      I'll definitely look you guys up at RR.

                       

                      Thanks for the tips! I'll definitely train with the run/walk on my longer runs, but not on my shorter long runs or weekday runs.

                       

                      As for nutrition, I'll probably try to stick with what I did at Tahoe, which worked really well. No solid food, just continually drink from a bottle of Sustained Energy (maybe 18 bottles of it for Tahoe, less at this race), and do gel every half hour or so (about 45 to 50 gels at Tahoe, less at Graveyard). And an Endurolyte capsule every 30 minutes.

                      DoppleBock


                        OK you really got me thinking - I would like to try other products other then Endurox R4 for fuel (It is a recovery drink) - But I love the sweet flavor.  Succeed Clip is to chalky and gritty.  I have tried some hammer products - I will have to go home and look at the 2 cans of stuff collecting dust ... I did not like them because of they are flavorless.

                         

                        I like the looks of the incredients of Sustain - But how would I choke it down?  I wonder what would happen if I added 1 scoop of endurox with 2 of sustain? 

                         

                         

                        I looked at Big Horn this year, but it's pretty tough to travel to. Flights into Sheridan are expensive, so I would need to fly into Denver and drive... and that sucks. 

                         

                        I'll definitely look you guys up at RR.

                         

                        Thanks for the tips! I'll definitely train with the run/walk on my longer runs, but not on my shorter long runs or weekday runs.

                         

                        As for nutrition, I'll probably try to stick with what I did at Tahoe, which worked really well. No solid food, just continually drink from a bottle of Sustained Energy (maybe 18 bottles of it for Tahoe, less at this race), and do gel every half hour or so (about 45 to 50 gels at Tahoe, less at Graveyard). And an Endurolyte capsule every 30 minutes.

                        http://a-big-horse.blogspot.com/ 

                        2013 Goals ~ Mar < 3:00, 5M < 29, 10k < 35  

                         


                        You'll ruin your knees!

                          DB,

                           

                          I know more than a couple of ultra runners who cook their own nutrition for longer runs/races...

                           

                          Here is an example of one I would certainly trust... looking at the ingredients, not all that different than some of the stuff being sold out there and leaves room to customize to your liking...

                           

                          Here’s my basic recipe, though it varies from batch to batch:

                           

                          1 serving:

                          50 grams maltodextrin (200 calories)

                          18 grams dextrose (corn sugar; 72 calories)

                          1 Succeed! cap

                           

                          I flavor with unsweetened KoolAid powder—lemonade is my favorite—one packet for each 5 servings.

                          If you like it less sweet, cut back on dextrose; if you like it sweeter, add more dextrose.

                          Measure in 272 calorie servings in snack-size Ziploc bags (about 70 grams with electrolytes and KoolAid).  A bag in a bottle of water every hour.

                           

                          I usually make a large batch—25 or so servings—when getting ready for a 100-miler.  I use digital gram scales and basically keep the same proportions as above.  I’ve never added other ingredients at all—no amino acids/protein, caffeine, calcium carbonate, etc—though some people do.  If I’m feeling low on cals, I’ll supplement with aid station food, gel or even throw my mix on top of whatever sport drink they’re serving.  At AC100, I think they were serving Gatorade.  Like most races, the drink was pretty diluted with water, so the mix was actually really good and helped supplement my cals in a few stretches.  Sometimes I will measure a few baggies with extra cals but never more than 300.  I carry a couple in my fanny pack as spares and put the rest in drop bags based on my estimated times there (2-3 snack-size baggies of mix in a sandwich size Ziploc).

                          ""...the truth that someday, you will go for your last run. But not today—today you got to run." - Matt Crownover (after Western States)