Ultra Runners

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Back to Backs Versus 1 Long Run? (Read 100 times)

    Any opinions on what's better?

     

    For all of the 50 milers I've done, I've only done 1 long run per weekend, maxing out a 5.5 hours. I'm doing my first 100 in March, and thought I'd throw some back to backs into my training for something different.

     

    I did 20 miles yesterday and 15 today. On the plus side, I did them a little faster than when I go very long and I did add a few miles over the 31 I did last weekend. But still, I can't say I was a big fan... It meant getting up early 2 mornings in a row and being tired 2 afternoons in a row. I realize I probably would need to take the 2nd run an hour longer to really get a benefit, but I dunno. All in all, can't say I'm a big fan.

     

    Looking for people who added the back to back to their mix and had it make a big difference, I guess.

     

    Thanks in advance!

    Go to http://certainintelligence.blogspot.com for my blog.

      It really comes down to what works for YOU.  I personally like to incorporate both.  For example, I'm training for the Rocky Raccoon 100 in a couple of weeks and have included a few back-to-backs (21/31, 15/20, 31/15) as well as a 50-mile run.  It often works better for my schedule to run back-to-backs, but if you're not a fan then I wouldn't bother.

      Upcoming races: 5/4 Tacoma City Marathon (5-hour pacer), 5/11 Lost Lake 50K, 5/24 Pigtails 100

       

      My woefully neglected blog.


      Fat butt on couch

        I can't speak to results yet, but I do both.  I've done 30-33 mile single training runs, and today I did my first 20+ back-to-back (24 then 21 run faster with a ~MP finishing section).

         

        IMHO they provide somewhat different stimuli.  They also each suck in somewhat different ways.  Big grin

        "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

         

          Yep. Wink

           

          Some people like to just go on one long adventure and have fun. Then do an easy run the next day or home chores or family or whatever. The single long run allows you to truly test gear, hydration, electrolytes, fuel. Do your feet start swelling too much for those shoes at 6hrs, but not a 3 hrs? Can you still stomach the same fuel at 8 hrs as at 3 hrs? Does that pack start rubbing?

           

          b2b will likely stop short of the above tests, but you'll be able to go faster. It takes a smaller chunk of time out of 2 days. Which works better for you and your family or other obligations.

           

          The model I originally followed was long runs every 2 wks, alternating b2b and one long run - so one long run and one b2b each month - for the 3 months before last long run (5 wks out) then last long run (3wks, 1/2 of b2b). I modified that to starting with b2b then gradually letting one day get longer and the other shorter. My early runs were still in cold and snow for races that were warm and maybe rainy. 8-hr runs in the snow and below freezing didn't help that much to understand what would work at 60F. So I'd try to get the 8-hr runs (preferably 3 or more) in when it was warmer. (I'm slow, so was only training for 50mi.)

          "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog


          Fat butt on couch

            Yep. Wink

             

            Some people like to just go on one long adventure and have fun. Then do an easy run the next day or home chores or family or whatever. The single long run allows you to truly test gear, hydration, electrolytes, fuel. Do your feet start swelling too much for those shoes at 6hrs, but not a 3 hrs? Can you still stomach the same fuel at 8 hrs as at 3 hrs? Does that pack start rubbing?

             

            b2b will likely stop short of the above tests, but you'll be able to go faster. It takes a smaller chunk of time out of 2 days. Which works better for you and your family or other obligations.

             

             

            This more or less captures what I did not detail.

             

            On the single long run, I get to practice fueling and really work the time-on-feet angle.

             

            On the B-2-B, I'm moving faster...no fueling...so that I can get some practice at making myself run fast on tired, unfueled legs for the latter part of the second run.

             

            In my personal case I am trying to work on a weak lower back so I can handle the rigors of a sub-6 50M by next fall.  So I feel I need to work on both the time-on-feet, but also running at or faster than race pace -- which the B-2-Bs allow me to do -- for a large number of miles.  IMHO 30-35 miles at ~7:15 pace does not necessarily guarantee my back can handle 50 miles at 20-25sec/mile faster.

             

            If I were running anything over 50mi/7hrs I'd probably do some things differently, but I'm not there yet.

            "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

             


            Uh oh... now what?

               

              ... 

              In my personal case I am trying to work on a weak lower back so I can handle the rigors of a sub-6 50M by next fall.  So I feel I need to work on both the time-on-feet, but also running at or faster than race pace -- which the B-2-Bs allow me to do -- for a large number of miles.  IMHO 30-35 miles at ~7:15 pace does not necessarily guarantee my back can handle 50 miles at 20-25sec/mile faster.

               

              If I were running anything over 50mi/7hrs I'd probably do some things differently, but I'm not there yet.

              Running sevens gets you in at 5:50, why the need to try for 6:50-6:55 pace?  Do you

              do longish (25 or so mile) tempo runs?  What is a target pace for them?


              Fat butt on couch

                Running sevens gets you in at 5:50, why the need to try for 6:50-6:55 pace?  Do you

                do longish (25 or so mile) tempo runs?  What is a target pace for them?

                 

                Sub-6 is just a starting point.  Smile

                 

                Define a 25-mile tempo run.  I would not consider any run that long to be a tempo run.  I ran 24@6:58 pace on Saturday, without a planned harder 20+ mile run the next day and with a bit of fueling it would be no issue to do it faster, by itself it was not a big deal.  But that's pretty easy from a pace perspective and only gets hard when you start adding another bunch of miles after that...

                "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                 

                  Good advice... so there might be some advantage to the speed thing in the BtoB. Something to consider, though I don't have much of a speed goal for my first 100... more like a survival goal. Smile

                   

                  Thanks!

                  Go to http://certainintelligence.blogspot.com for my blog.

                    Good advice... so there might be some advantage to the speed thing in the BtoB. Something to consider, though I don't have much of a speed goal for my first 100... more like a survival goal. Smile

                     

                    Thanks!

                     

                    Just from what I've seen, it is an exceptionally rare individual that that run at a decent pace continually for more than 100K.  Speedy but inexperienced (at 100K+ distance) runners have a tendency to go out too fast and blow up.  Just as the second half of a 100M is a profound effort of mental endurance, so is the first half, in running your own race and sticking to your plan.  Finishing is all about starting fresh and staying focused.

                    2013 H1:  7 hours/week base.  Q3: Train for goal race.  Q4:  Goal Race.


                    Uh oh... now what?

                      Good advice... so there might be some advantage to the speed thing in the BtoB. Something to consider, though I don't have much of a speed goal for my first 100... more like a survival goal. Smile

                       

                      Thanks!

                       

                      A horrible myth is that speed work/training is unnecessary for ultramarathons.  It is just as needed for 50 mile, 100k, or 100 mile as it is for a 10k, the magnitude just changes.  A time goal for an ultra is not the same as a speed goal because the courses are so widely varied.  An 8-hour finish could put you in the top five at one race, in the 65-80 group the next time.


                      Trail Monster

                         

                        A horrible myth is that speed work/training is unnecessary for ultramarathons.  It is just as needed for 50 mile, 100k, or 100 mile as it is for a 10k, the magnitude just changes.  A time goal for an ultra is not the same as a speed goal because the courses are so widely varied.  An 8-hour finish could put you in the top five at one race, in the 65-80 group the next time.

                         

                        Agreed. I have a good friend/coach/ultra runner helping me plan my first (successful) 100M training and speed work is included. If I can finish half as well as she does it will be a great day!

                        2013 races:

                        3/17 Shamrock Marathon

                        4/20 North Coast 24 Hour

                        7/27 Burning RIver 100M

                        8/24 Baker 50M

                        10/5 Oil Creek (distance to be determined)

                         

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                        DoppleBock


                          The majority seem to like back to back long runs.  I am not part of that majority - I am a run really long once and then recover type of guy.  I like running 4-5 hours once per month and if I am serious about ling ultras a second run  that is @ 6 hours once per month.

                           

                          This month is was a nice long trail run on slushy, slippy snow - It took 4:43 for what usually takes 4:00-4:10.  But I will do a rail trail, a 7 mile road loop or Treadmill for long runs.  For me the hardest in the 7 mile road loop.

                          http://a-big-horse.blogspot.com/ 

                          2013 Goals ~ Mar < 3:00, 5M < 29, 10k < 35  

                           

                          DoppleBock


                            I would love to see you run 6-8 hours once per month in the same rythm of eating, running and walking on similar course as the race.  You can even go slightly faster than your 100 mile pace.

                             

                            Any opinions on what's better?

                             

                            For all of the 50 milers I've done, I've only done 1 long run per weekend, maxing out a 5.5 hours. I'm doing my first 100 in March, and thought I'd throw some back to backs into my training for something different.

                             

                            I did 20 miles yesterday and 15 today. On the plus side, I did them a little faster than when I go very long and I did add a few miles over the 31 I did last weekend. But still, I can't say I was a big fan... It meant getting up early 2 mornings in a row and being tired 2 afternoons in a row. I realize I probably would need to take the 2nd run an hour longer to really get a benefit, but I dunno. All in all, can't say I'm a big fan.

                             

                            Looking for people who added the back to back to their mix and had it make a big difference, I guess.

                             

                            Thanks in advance!

                            http://a-big-horse.blogspot.com/ 

                            2013 Goals ~ Mar < 3:00, 5M < 29, 10k < 35  

                             

                              I would love to see you run 6-8 hours once per month in the same rythm of eating, running and walking on similar course as the race.  You can even go slightly faster than your 100 mile pace.

                               

                               

                              I've got 8 weeks until my 100 and I think that's how I'm going to drop in 2-3 of those... I feel that, for me, that's probably what's going to work best.

                              Go to http://certainintelligence.blogspot.com for my blog.

                              DoppleBock


                                Nope

                                 

                                You need at least 4 weeks from your last effort to race day.  I would drop in 1 of those efforts and 1 effort of 4-5 hours.

                                 

                                 

                                I've got 8 weeks until my 100 and I think that's how I'm going to drop in 2-3 of those... I feel that, for me, that's probably what's going to work best.

                                http://a-big-horse.blogspot.com/ 

                                2013 Goals ~ Mar < 3:00, 5M < 29, 10k < 35  

                                 

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