Ultra Runners

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DOMS (Read 76 times)

    I did a "Hilly" 22 mile training run the weekend before last and a 33 mile race (Flat course) last weekend.

     

    Both times my quads were trashed by the end of the workout / race and for 3 days (at least) after.

     

    I did a little research and I'm pretty sure it's DOMS.

     

    So I did a search and found Fellrnr's post on DOMS.  He gives some nice advise and recommendations on DOMS inducing workouts (downhill running and eccentric weights) to provide some protection against future bouts of DOMS.  I am less than 4 weeks away from a 100, and have not done any of these recommended workouts.  Should I try to implement some of this now or is it too late to have any benefit?

     

    Anyone have any success stories or recommendations for minimizing DOMS?

      How much elevation change (up and down separately) does your 100-mi race have?

       

      The real question is can you do enough to make a difference? Yes, you can improve downhill tolerance in a few weeks. You can also injure yourself, and your DOMS responses to date, suggest there's a high likelihood of doing something you can't recover from. Some downhill training would help with a relatively gentle course, but may not make a whole lot of difference if you're doing something with, say, 20,000ft of uphill and 20,000ft of downhill, which is still not major hills for a 100miler. Risks probably outweigh gains for this race.

       

      MTA: You may want to define what "hilly" 22 mile training run means to you. (I get about 1000-2000ft of up and respective down in 4-6 miles, depending on which trail, with the more uphill being in the shorter route.)

      "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog
      HoosierDaddy


        I did a "Hilly" 22 mile training run the weekend before last and a 33 mile race (Flat course) last weekend.

         

        Both times my quads were trashed by the end of the workout / race and for 3 days (at least) after.

         

        I did a little research and I'm pretty sure it's DOMS.

         

        So I did a search and found Fellrnr's post on DOMS.  He gives some nice advise and recommendations on DOMS inducing workouts (downhill running and eccentric weights) to provide some protection against future bouts of DOMS.  I am less than 4 weeks away from a 100, and have not done any of these recommended workouts.  Should I try to implement some of this now or is it too late to have any benefit?

         

        Anyone have any success stories or recommendations for minimizing DOMS?

         

        I don't know if the gains outweigh the risks.  If you damage muscles and they don't heal up, your race could suffer (aggravate existing damage).  If I were doing it ,I might do it on a gradual down hill, run repeats downhill and recover hike back up nice and easy.  Don't kill yourself and wouldn't do within 2-3 weeks of the race.  Not much to gain in the last 4 weeks but a lot to lose.  My 2 cents.

          Thanks for the input, sorry  about not giving enough info.

           

          I'm in Florida.  The "hilly" training run is on a bike trail that has lots of ups and downs but it only fluctuates between 0'-100'.  It's about the best we can find for hill training.  The rest of my running is all flat, which is probably why I think I'm susceptible to DOMS.

           

          I expect the elevation change on the course to be minimal.  It's also in Florida but the website says it's not flat and that there are some sand dunes you run over.

            What sort of base do you have? How many hours or miles were you running each week about 4 wks ago and how long before that were you running that much? IOW, don't want the peak week, but what you'd been averaging, say, 2-4 months before now and maybe longer ago than that. To me, it sounds like you just don't have enough miles on your legs.

            "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

              Steve, how did your quads feel after Tahoe? Are you training any differently for your upcoming Florida race than you did for TRT?

               

              I find your post appropriate as I've finally decided for training specificity this year myself. I'm going to run a hard(ish) 100 miler at the end of March that I ran last year. At the end of the race last year my quads were shot. Thinking about it I didn't really place any particular focus on hills, just went out and ran and think I paid a little heavier price for not focusing on hills in training.

               

              Smash cut to this year, I've found a hill by my house (6~6.5% grade)  that is 1 mile long, so I've been doing long hill repeats on it (run a mile down, run a mile up) I hope that this will reduce the severity of DOMS this year.

               

              Since your upcoming race sounds like it will have minimal elevation change, I wouldn't worry too much about hill specific training at this point. You could just be tired and experiencing DOMS because you had a 22 mile "hilly" training run followed by a week later with a 33 mile race.

               

              Have a kick ass race (which one?)

                What sort of base do you have? How many hours or miles were you running each week about 4 wks ago and how long before that were you running that much? IOW, don't want the peak week, but what you'd been averaging, say, 2-4 months before now and maybe longer ago than that. To me, it sounds like you just don't have enough miles on your legs.

                 

                I have my log open so you should be able to see my base and background.

                  Steve, how did your quads feel after Tahoe? Are you training any differently for your upcoming Florida race than you did for TRT?

                   

                  I find your post appropriate as I've finally decided for training specificity this year myself. I'm going to run a hard(ish) 100 miler at the end of March that I ran last year. At the end of the race last year my quads were shot. Thinking about it I didn't really place any particular focus on hills, just went out and ran and think I paid a little heavier price for not focusing on hills in training.

                   

                  Smash cut to this year, I've found a hill by my house (6~6.5% grade)  that is 1 mile long, so I've been doing long hill repeats on it (run a mile down, run a mile up) I hope that this will reduce the severity of DOMS this year.

                   

                  Since your upcoming race sounds like it will have minimal elevation change, I wouldn't worry too much about hill specific training at this point. You could just be tired and experiencing DOMS because you had a 22 mile "hilly" training run followed by a week later with a 33 mile race.

                   

                  Have a kick ass race (which one?)

                   

                  Hey Mark,

                   

                  My Quads hurt after Tahoe, but so did everything else.

                   

                  I haven't changed much this time around.

                   

                  The race is Fort Clinch.  Thanks for your comments and good luck at Badger Mountain.

                     

                    I have my log open so you should be able to see my base and background.

                     

                    oops, sorry, I keep forgetting the logs here. I'm surprised you had much DOMS with that mileage.

                    "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog
                    HoosierDaddy


                      Thanks for the input, sorry  about not giving enough info.

                       

                      I'm in Florida.  The "hilly" training run is on a bike trail that has lots of ups and downs but it only fluctuates between 0'-100'.  It's about the best we can find for hill training.  The rest of my running is all flat, which is probably why I think I'm susceptible to DOMS.

                       

                      I expect the elevation change on the course to be minimal.  It's also in Florida but the website says it's not flat and that there are some sand dunes you run over.

                       

                      This may sound crazy but I know flatlanders that find a tall parking garage and run repeats in there...

                         

                        This may sound crazy but I know flatlanders that find a tall parking garage and run repeats in there...

                        There is parking garage pretty close to me.  My son and I were on a bike ride and went up and down it a few times.  It was over the weekend and was completely empty, but within about 5 minutes a security guard came and asked us to leave.

                         

                        We have a paved bike trail that passes over a road and it has a decent hill on it that I think I could do some short hill stuff on.  There is also a bridge that is a short drive away.

                         

                        Sounds like this is something I should be doing.  Probably too late for this race but I'll start working in in April.

                           

                          This may sound crazy but I know flatlanders that find a tall parking garage and run repeats in there...

                           

                          There was an article in TrailRunner (or maybe RT) about a flatlander training for a mountain race.

                           

                          He ran in parking garages as well as stairs in an office (or apartment) building. What really helped him was he purchased a deer drag online and used it to pull a tire.

                            I think it is too late to do anything about it before the upcoming 100. The 33 mile race on tired legs probably will translate into a benefit on race day as long as you allow for a reasonable recovery.  Your base is very good, you have experience, etc.  Focus on your strategy:  pace, nutrition, hydration.  I can't remember if fellrnr's article mentioned back-to-back long runs, which anecdotally has been known to help reduce DOMS, but you sure as hell don't want to do something like that this weekend, because your body needs recovery from the past two weekends.  There is mention of consuming a large protein dose immediately after a long run -- do you do that?

                             

                            If you are doing one more long workout, do a 3-4 hour "24 hour pace" run, a complete dress-rehearsal right down to food, drink, clothing, shoes, and pace.  I also wonder what would happen if you up your calories a little more -- looks like you get maybe 125 cals/hr or less.  That's not very much for your relatively fast pace.

                             

                            For a 100, it is all about feeling fresh.

                            2013 H1:  7 hours/week base.  Q3: Train for goal race.  Q4:  Goal Race.

                              I think it is too late to do anything about it before the upcoming 100. The 33 mile race on tired legs probably will translate into a benefit on race day as long as you allow for a reasonable recovery.  Your base is very good, you have experience, etc.  Focus on your strategy:  pace, nutrition, hydration.  I can't remember if fellrnr's article mentioned back-to-back long runs, which anecdotally has been known to help reduce DOMS, but you sure as hell don't want to do something like that this weekend, because your body needs recovery from the past two weekends.  There is mention of consuming a large protein dose immediately after a long run -- do you do that?

                               

                              If you are doing one more long workout, do a 3-4 hour "24 hour pace" run, a complete dress-rehearsal right down to food, drink, clothing, shoes, and pace.  I also wonder what would happen if you up your calories a little more -- looks like you get maybe 125 cals/hr or less.  That's not very much for your relatively fast pace.

                               

                              For a 100, it is all about feeling fresh.

                               

                              Thanks for your comments.  I like your suggestion on the dress rehearsal and intend to do that tomorrow.

                               

                              RE: 125 cals/hr, that's probably accurate with the 33 mile race.  I had planned on wearing a hydration pack but it turned out to be such a cold Day I figured I would just need a handheld.  I was OK with water but forgot to carry more food.  I did pick up a gel at one of the aid stations but didn't eat it.   Actually I think that in all my longer races I have struggled with getting enough calories.  I need to work on that and really pay attention to it during the 100.

                               

                              RE: Protein after - Usually after races I eat something with protein and have been bringing a BOOST drink to take after most of my long runs.