Ultra Runners

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Anyone want to review my training plan for a 50K or 50 Miler? (Read 100 times)

npaden


    Okay, really thinking about switching my goal race on April 25th of this year from the 50K option to the 50 mile option.

     

    Unlike most of you, I look long and hard for the easiest course with the least hills, least technical trails, etc. and have pretty much settled on the Brazos Bend 50 for my spring goal race this year.  I had originally settled on the 50K, but am really thinking about changing it to the 50 miler.

     

    Ultimately I was planning on waiting to see how I do at the Crazy Desert Trail Race marathon to decide for sure, but really going through the thought process, maybe I should sign up for the 50K option of the Crazy Desert Trail Race if I really want to do the Brazos Bend 50 miler.

     

    The reason I was planning on doing the marathon distance at the Crazy Desert Trail Race is that most of the faster folks sign up for the 50K, not the marathon so I would be a lot more likely to place in the marathon.  See my terrible way of thinking on this kind of stuff?

     

    I've gone through and messed with my training plan to change it up for the 50 mile thought process, essentially it was just adding a few miles the day after the trail marathon I plan to run as a supported training run and then bumping the next weekend from 2 - 10 mile easy runs to 2 - 14 mile easy runs and then adding a 30 mile long run the next weekend.  Other than that I didn't really change anything from when it was a 50K training plan.

     

    Here's a direct link to the plan - http://www.runningahead.com/logs/17b912e64ad246e9bbe4a270366a97f6/plans/3cF

     

    I think with my old training plan for the 50K I was setting myself up to run a pretty decent race on it, with the new training plan for the 50 miler I'm probably just more or less looking to finish without have to walk the last 10 miles.

     

    One thing in the plan that really kind of messes things up is the half marathon on April 11th.  Really my last long run should be the weekend before that race and now I have it 4 weeks before the goal 50 miler to keep from running it the weekend before the half marathon.  Do you think that will mess things up too much?

     

    I've been reading through old threads and I have no doubt I would be able to "finish" the 50 miler, but would actually like for it to be somewhat enjoyable and a good experience.  I'm just not sure I have the time to do a whole lot more training than I am now and was thinking that I might try to get the 50 miler in while I could.

     

    Any specific advice would be welcome.

     

    I guess the big questions are...

     

    1. Should I just stick with the originally planned 50K or do I have a decent enough base to try to go for the 50 miler?

     

    2. If I decide to try to go for the 50 miler would it make much difference whether I ran the marathon distance or the 50K distance at the Crazy Desert Trail Race in a month?

     

    3. Should I change my schedule and eliminate the half marathon 2 weeks before the goal race and make my longest long run that weekend before (3 weeks before the goal race) instead?

     

    Thanks in advance for any advice.  Nathan

     

    P.S. - Next year I think I am going to focus on a BQ marathon for my spring goal race so currently not planning on any ultras next year.

    Age: 50 Weight: 224 Height: 6'3" (Goal weight 195)

    Current PR's:  Mara 3:14:36* (2017); HM 1:36:13 (2017); 10K 43:59 (2014); 5K 21:12 (2016)

    hectortrojan


      I never ran a 50 miler. Training for doing one on March 7th so take my words with a grain of salt.

       

      From what I hear, the longest run is recommended 3-4 weeks before the race. So if you do your longest run 1 week before your HM (4 week before the race), that should work

       

      Regarding specific questions

      1. My base is lesser than yours and I am talking about doing a 50 miler before you. If I were you, I would go for a 50 miler.
      2. I do not think it will make much difference if you do a marathon instead of 50k for your longest. I did a 26 miler for the longest run last weekend. I am not familiar with course and terrain for marathon or 50 miler you are mentioning here. You are in trouble if you are doing most of your running on flat surface (your pace seems very consistent based on your logs) and want to do a trail 50 miler with some elevation and/or trails with roots and rocks.
      3. I do not think there is much difference between longest run 3 weeks before and 4 weeks before the race. If you want to do HM, go for it.

      I prefer to taper more than what I see in your plan. But we all are different. Stick with your plan if that has been working out for you.

      npaden


        The Brazos Bend course is supposed to be about as flat and nontechnical as you can get for a trail race.

         

        That is probably one of my biggest weaknesses in my training, I just don't have much in the way of trails to train on around here.  I try to get out on trails whenever possible, but that isn't very often.  I do have a few big hills that I incorporate into my routes (200' gain in about 1/2 mile so not monster hills, but decent ones) and I run quite a bit on gravel/dirt roads that have some ruts and rocks, but are not technical by any means.

         

        The Crazy Desert Trail Race that I plan on running the trail marathon as a training run does have some technical spots mixed in and a few hills as well and will really be more of challenge from that perspective than the Brazos Bend course from what I have read.

         

        My taper is somewhat based on the taper that I used for my first marathon that was based on the Hansons plan.  It seemed to work well for me, but I'll do some more reading to see if I need to taper more than that.

        Age: 50 Weight: 224 Height: 6'3" (Goal weight 195)

        Current PR's:  Mara 3:14:36* (2017); HM 1:36:13 (2017); 10K 43:59 (2014); 5K 21:12 (2016)

          Overall it looks reasonable.   Personally I'm not sure how well a 13 mile tempo run is going to work but if it becomes too hard you can just make it an easy run.  Otherwise, I would be careful with the races, especially the marathon (don't go all out) and the 15 k a week before your 50 seems like a big risk. There are a few minor tweaks that I would probably make but nothing major.

           

          I know if you look at my log you'll see I did a number of 50k races before 50 milers but for me the difference is that I usually go into these fatigued from heavy training and it is almost impossible to race them all out in those conditions.  I also think as you run longer distances more consistently you can adapt to racing them easier.  What you don't want to happen is lose a whole week of training because you didn't recover well.

          npaden


            Thanks for the input.  The 13 mile MP Tempos are a standard in the Hansons marathon plan.  2 mile warm up, 10 miles at marathon pace (I've been shooting for around 8:00 pace) then a 1 mile cool down.  Not true "Tempo" runs.  They seem to work well for me because they get you moving a bit quicker and keep the run closer to 1:45 during the week instead of it dragging out to 2+ hours.  Of course from what I've been reading time on feet is important for ultra training, but I'm also using this same plan to try to get a 7:29 pace Half Marathon under my belt as well so that's why I'm leaving them in.  I may swap one of them out for a long trail run that last week or March or first week of April.  Hopefully I'll get my sub 7:29 pace half marathon taken care of on March 1st and not have to worry about in on the April 11th one.

             

            Thanks for the tip on making sure I run the "races" on my schedule easy.  I only intend to run the 2 - half marathons as true races.  I'm really going to work hard on the trail marathon to try to go out easy and try to make it a true long run and not race it.  I think it will beat me up some, but hopefully not so much that I can't recover enough to keep my training going.  Planning on walking hills and watching my HR to make sure it doesn't get too high.  Also try to work on my footing on trails and try not to fall.

             

            I've run the 15K race as a training run before, it's pretty low key and I was able to run it as a MP Tempo run before my marathon back in 2013.  Would 9 miles at marathon pace (8:00ish) a week before the 50 miler be bad?  I could drop down to the 2 mile race that day but it would be hard not to go all out on the 2 miler.

             

            I'm leaning toward doing the 50 miler pretty hard now that I've thought about it a bit.  Now I just need to work up the courage to tell my wife! 

            Age: 50 Weight: 224 Height: 6'3" (Goal weight 195)

            Current PR's:  Mara 3:14:36* (2017); HM 1:36:13 (2017); 10K 43:59 (2014); 5K 21:12 (2016)

              I've never really trained for a flat ultra (hilly and technical ultras yes)... So, take my comments with a grain of salt.  But in general, 50 mile training isn't that much different from marathon training other than: long runs are longer (25-35 miles), train for the terrain (not much to do for flat/non-technical), and speedwork is icing on the cake.

               

              As far as training runs go (including races used for training runs), I find the flatter and less technical the course, the harder the recovery is.  Also, although I understand what you are thinking about marathon pace runs, if it is really marathon pace you are not gaining any aerobic benefit nor is it going to help you pace well for a 50 miler.  The only reason to do a 15k at marathon pace or faster a week before your first 50 miler (or even a marathon) is to make your goal race harder.  Not sure if that is what you are going for, but that will most likely be the result.

               

              I would get in more longer runs 25-35, for a total of 4, with the last one at a maximum 3 weeks before the goal race.  My only other comment is that I don't see the benefit of a 3 mile run on Tuesdays.  Either take the day off or up it to an hour of running (6 miles?).

               

              You can always check out my training plans for Ice Age 50, Kettle 100, or Superior if you want to compare...

              npaden


                Thanks again for the comments.  I had looked at your training plans and also back to the workouts before your 2011 Iceage 50 miler.  I'm not going to get to the 80 - 90 mile weeks that you had leading into your races, but should be able to throw down some consistent 60 mile weeks and am going to try to peak at an 80 mile week.  The problem is that the way my schedule works right now that ends up 5 weeks before the race.

                 

                The 3 miles on Wednesdays is just a hold over from my Hansons marathon plan.  They schedule a rest day on Wednesday, but suggested that the first place to add miles was by adding some easy miles on the rest day.  I added 3 miles that day and have kind of stuck with it.  Recently I've actually bumped most of those runs up to 4 miles anyway, but I will try to work in a couple more miles when my schedule permits it.  I run those after work before church and the 4 miles is easy to sneak in, but 6 may be just a tiny bit harder but I will try to get it closer to an hour on those days.

                 

                I guess I could run the 15K the week before the race as an easy run although that will be a little bit tougher than running it as a MP Tempo run.  Our running club has monthly races and a year long challenge series and skipping a race would put me in catch up mode the rest of the year.  There is a 2 mile or 15K distance that day and I would actually be competitive in my Clydesdale division even at an easy pace on the 15K.  It would be tough to run slow on the 2 miler though, but if I could talk my son (who is 8) into running with me I could run it with him and that would be an easy pace for me.  Either way I think I can make that work.

                 

                The tougher thing to schedule around is if I want to try to run that full out half marathon 2 weeks before the 50 miler.  It sounds like that probably isn't a good idea.  Think a 20K technical trail race that week would be a good idea instead?

                 

                For now I'm leaving the half marathon in the schedule, but took out the semi-taper the weekend before and replaced it with 16 and 14 mile runs.  Also took out a couple of the 13 mile MP Tempo runs and replaced them with trail runs instead.

                 

                Too much stuff that I want to fit in and hard to work around it all.

                 

                Thanks again for the input.  Nathan

                Age: 50 Weight: 224 Height: 6'3" (Goal weight 195)

                Current PR's:  Mara 3:14:36* (2017); HM 1:36:13 (2017); 10K 43:59 (2014); 5K 21:12 (2016)

                  I guess I could run the 15K the week before the race as an easy run although that will be a little bit tougher than running it as a MP Tempo run.  Our running club has monthly races and a year long challenge series and skipping a race would put me in catch up mode the rest of the year.  There is a 2 mile or 15K distance that day and I would actually be competitive in my Clydesdale division even at an easy pace on the 15K.  It would be tough to run slow on the 2 miler though, but if I could talk my son (who is 8) into running with me I could run it with him and that would be an easy pace for me.  Either way I think I can make that work.

                   

                  The tougher thing to schedule around is if I want to try to run that full out half marathon 2 weeks before the 50 miler.  It sounds like that probably isn't a good idea.  Think a 20K technical trail race that week would be a good idea instead?

                   

                  It's a toss up on 2 mile vs 15k at MP.  You would most likely recover faster from the 2 mile even if you went near all out, but the risk of injury is higher.  OTOH, risk of racing to hard and not recovering in time is higher for the 15k.  If it were me, I would skip the race because I would not want to take the chance either way.  Know thyself.

                   

                  Going by the general rule of thumb that I recover faster from trail races, I would pick a 20k trail race two weeks before the 50 rather than a half marathon all out.

                   

                  One last general comment (I swear ), you seem very focused on the races leading up to your 50 miler.  I've seen from experience that people who are not "all in" and 100% focused for their first 50+ mile race have a higher DNF rate.  Running your first 50 is going to be a huge mental and physical challenge.  If you are already entertaining running a lot of races that could put your 50 mile readiness at risk, are you sure this is the right time to take this on?  Again, know thyself.

                  npaden


                    Okay, I skipped the half marathon 2 weeks out and will either do a marathon as a supported long run that weekend before (3 weeks before the race) or just do a long run on my own that weekend.

                     

                    Now the only race that I plan on racing between now and then is the half marathon that I am running on March 1st which is 7 weeks before the 50 mile race.  All the others will be planned as supported long runs or I will run them easy.

                     

                    Not sure if I'll be able to pull off every one of my training runs and not sure about 2 super long runs on back to back weekends, but I've got them on the schedule and will attempt it.

                     

                    I'll know a lot more about how this is going to work after the trail marathon on March 14th.  I plan on really focusing on running easy and taking walking breaks and not worrying about my time at all.  If I can come out of that feeling good enough to knock out the 10 easy miles I have on my schedule the next day I think that will be a good indicator that I'm on track to be able to pull off the 50 miler.

                     

                    Thanks again for the input.

                    Age: 50 Weight: 224 Height: 6'3" (Goal weight 195)

                    Current PR's:  Mara 3:14:36* (2017); HM 1:36:13 (2017); 10K 43:59 (2014); 5K 21:12 (2016)

                      The only reason to do a 15k at marathon pace or faster a week before your first 50 miler (or even a marathon) is to make your goal race harder.  Not sure if that is what you are going for, but that will most likely be the result.

                       

                      I would get in more longer runs 25-35, for a total of 4, with the last one at a maximum 3 weeks before the goal race.  My only other comment is that I don't see the benefit of a 3 mile run on Tuesdays.  Either take the day off or up it to an hour of running (6 miles?).

                       

                      Nathan, I don't have much to add outside of what has been offered here. The plan looks reasonable, with the exception of the 15k race one week out. That won't make the 50M goal any easier.  I do like to stretch my legs out with a mini-tempo about 3-4 days out.  Something like 2 miles (max) at MP with some really easy running on either side.  Keeps me from feeling stale that taper week.

                       

                      Based on your plan, I think you'll get your 50 miler.  Something I didn't do in my first attempt was enough really long runs.  Like you, my 50 happened because of good timing but I was mostly training for a BQ.  My longest runs were marathons run 9 weeks (all out) and 3 weeks out (easy-ish).  During the 50, miles 35 onward were really, really tough...which is expected...but probably tougher than it would have been if I had several longer runs under my belt.

                      runnerclay


                      Consistently Slow

                        I have  an issue with your last 2 weeks. I prefer tapering.  There are 50k-50 m- 100 m schedule. You are probably more inline with the 100 mile.

                        Are you on a running streak? I would also do a few more 35 - 40 mile weekends( 25/15).

                        http://www.trailrunevents.com/ul/schedule-100m.asp

                         

                        PS: it is a good thing my 1st 50 miler was a training run (have several  timed events). I had only two runs over 24 miles in 10 weeks. 0 BTB long runs. Not wise. In hindsight. Training logs are nice to review.

                        Run until the trail runs out.

                         SCHEDULE 2016--

                         The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

                        unsolicited chatter

                        http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

                        npaden


                          Thanks for the input MrRipper and RunnerClay.

                           

                          I think I can pull off the easy pace 15K race the week before.  I need to find someone to pace for, I emailed the half marathon that I was thinking about running 2 weeks before and asked if they could use me as a 2 hour pacer which would be right at my normal easy pace.  Hopefully they comp my entry fee and I think that would be fun to do and would force me to take it easy.  The 15K is a club race so it's only a $5 entry fee so no big deal on getting a comp'd entry fee, but I will post on their facebook page if anyone needs a 9:00ish pacer to help them.

                           

                          Clay, I'm not a slave to my streak right now, but I feel like I've always done better when I have a streak going.  Mine's only at 29 days right now, but I seem to do pretty well running everyday instead of only 5 days a week like that 100 mile training plan has.  I will think and research out the taper as I get closer to it.  The Hansons don't have near as much of a taper as normal marathon plans and that worked well for me so I was thinking I would do something similar for the 50 miler, but a 50 miler is a bit different than a marathon.

                           

                          I will look into adding some more miles on my run before or after my long runs that are on the schedule.  Another thing that I'm going to look into is doing some of them within 24 hours of each other where I do a long run in the evening and then do my next run in the morning.  Also thinking about doing a couple long runs the same day where I do 16 in the morning and 16 in the evening or something like that.  Everything I've been reading emphasizes time on feet so I'm thinking of some different options to get that accomplished.

                           

                          Of course a training plan is just a plan, it will be interesting as I get to some of those back to back runs how my body will actually respond.  Also fitting some of this into my normal life is going to take some ingenuity as well.

                           

                          Thanks again for the input.  Nathan

                          Age: 50 Weight: 224 Height: 6'3" (Goal weight 195)

                          Current PR's:  Mara 3:14:36* (2017); HM 1:36:13 (2017); 10K 43:59 (2014); 5K 21:12 (2016)

                          runnerclay


                          Consistently Slow

                            so thinking about doing a couple long runs the same day where I do 16 in the morning and 16 in the evening or something like that.  

                             

                            Thanks again for the input.  Nathan

                             

                            Theory is the body does not no you did not run 32 miles at once.

                            Run until the trail runs out.

                             SCHEDULE 2016--

                             The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

                            unsolicited chatter

                            http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

                            npaden


                              Well, this was the weekend that was supposed to help me decide if I was going to sign up for the 50 miler or not.

                               

                              Ran a trail marathon on Saturday as a supported long run that I was supposed to follow up with a 10 mile run on Sunday.

                               

                              Really enjoyed the trail marathon, it wasn't very hilly and the trail wasn't very technical, but interesting enough to be a really enjoyable trail run overall.  I was mostly all single track trails and it was nice to not have to be constantly worried about tripping and falling like some of the more technical trails are like.  I kept it easy and didn't stress over my pace at all and felt really good.  It was kind of interesting that I ended up finishing in 4:21:35 which comes out to exactly a 10:00 pace.  That included one bathroom stop and a little bit of loitering at a couple of the aid stations.  I was ready to be done the last couple miles, but not like I was thinking I was wanting to walk or anything, I could have continued on, was just happy that I didn't.  I only took 2 gu's the entire time and drank water and didn't ever feel like I was hitting a wall or anything like that so I guess I was going at an easy enough pace that my body was able to burn fat instead of glycogen so that is good.

                               

                              My training plan only called for 10 miles yesterday, but I thought I might go ahead and run 12 and then during the run I decided I would go ahead with a backward goofy challenge and run a half marathon after the marathon the day before and then went a little long so I ended up running 13.7 miles yesterday.  Was a beautiful evening and ended up averaging a 9:21 avg pace on that one.

                               

                              My right calf ended up a little tight after that run but not too bad and I did some rolling on it and that really helped loosen it back up.

                               

                              So with that experience behind me I guess I am going to go ahead and sign up for the 50.  In some ways I think that this gave me some more respect for the distance as that seemed like a big deal getting in 40 miles in 2 days, but that's still 10 miles short of how far I'll need to go in a single day so I know it is going to be hard, but it will be a challenge and that's what I'm looking for.

                               

                              Just 3 more big weeks left on my training plan then I start to taper for the race!

                              Age: 50 Weight: 224 Height: 6'3" (Goal weight 195)

                              Current PR's:  Mara 3:14:36* (2017); HM 1:36:13 (2017); 10K 43:59 (2014); 5K 21:12 (2016)

                              npaden


                                I went ahead and signed up for the 50 miler.

                                 

                                I'm very interested to see how I will do.  I for sure respect the 50 mile distance more so than if I were signing up for the 50K.

                                 

                                It was kind of interesting to me that on Saturday I was running my 2nd marathon ever, but it wasn't really a big deal at all to me because I had already run that distance before.  Especially since I was running it as a training run and not trying to meet a specific time or anything.

                                 

                                Now when it comes time to attempt to BQ at the marathon distance, I think it will get my respect again!

                                Age: 50 Weight: 224 Height: 6'3" (Goal weight 195)

                                Current PR's:  Mara 3:14:36* (2017); HM 1:36:13 (2017); 10K 43:59 (2014); 5K 21:12 (2016)

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