Ultra Runners

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Rest between close marathons/ultras (Read 467 times)

    I know a lot of you mentally imbalanced idiots fine folks run marathons and ultras sometimes close together ... and I'm looking for a little advice on how to manage that. Here's my upcoming schedule: * This week I may (or maybe not) stupidly run some serious mileage with an ultra distance training run (40+) on Sunday, April 6th. * On April 13th I'm running the Glass City Marathon. It had originally been planned as a slow training run, but now I'm considering running it hard. (Or was considering it, before step one up there popped up). * Two weeks later, on April 26th - the CMM, a goal marathon. * One week later is the Strolling Jim 40 that I'd really like to do. I think its 41.5 or something. ------------ Other than the obvious advice to bail on the run plans this week ... any advice on managing rest days between the two marathons and the ultra? Should I just not run at all during that week (or two) period? Since I'll be running so much and so slow, should I maybe do a couple quicker runs before the marathons? I'm especially looking at that one week period between the CMM and Strolling Jim. It'd be my first ultra, so time isn't an issue. I just want to finish and not cripple myself. Thoughts? What I'm looking for here is a sort of magic that may not exist: a way to maximize the actual marathons, do all the runs, and still avoid likelihood of injury. ----------------- Oh - and hi, ultra group! I've lurked here for a while but never had much to ask or contribute. But this kinda thing seems right up your alley. Thanks.
    E-mail: JakeKnight2002@aol.com
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    who knows...

      I think a few more of your nipple-hurting "stupid" runs (yep, I looked at your running log) and you will be prepared for anything. I am less qualified than others here to offer any sort of advice on what you want to do. But it seems to me that running two hard marathons nestled so closely and sweetly in between two ultras may significantly increase the risk of injury. MTA: at your running log
      "There is no I in εγω." --Unknown author, source of possible, but in no way certain, Greek origin
        But it seems to me that running two hard marathons nestled so closely and sweetly in between two ultras may significantly increase the risk of injury.
        To clarify: yes. I know. But assume unchangeable stupidity on my part (should be easy) and go from there. I may bail on the runs this week or the long run this weekend. The other three aren't really optional. I may run the first marathon slow. Or maybe the second slow. And the ultra - if I get to do it - will be slower than slow. But what I'm asking is ... assuming I don't do the obvious thing and skip some of these runs ... what is the best way to handle the time between the runs?
        E-mail: JakeKnight2002@aol.com
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        Ultrachick

          My Jake-aren't you ambitious! I say cut your run down to 10-12 on April 6. Make the marathon on the 13th a tempo run-start out slow, speed up for the middle and slow it back down towards the end. Do some easy runs during the 2 weeks between the marathons-similiar to what you've been doing to build up so far (I'm at work and don't have time to look at your log-sorry) or follow what you have planned for tapering for a marathon. Run the CMM and see what happens-you may be spent. Do some slow, easy runs during the week after-go by how you feel-you may do a run/walk combo and go for the Strolling Jim. I would keep moving in between all these races which is what I think you're looking for in an answer. Go by how you feel-you may even do two workouts in a day-do a 2 mile run/walk in the mornign to get the kinks out and do a little more later in the day once you've been moving for a while. Those are my thoughts based on my experience last year of doing a 50m race one weekend, a marathon 3 weeks later and another 50m 3 weeks later. Kelly
          If you never go fast, you'll never go fast.


          You'll ruin your knees!

            Thoughts on schedule: this week - I'm totally OK with it...take extra care to fuel and hydrate before (day of and days before) and during the long run. By the way, why 40+? If your training for the SJ, I don't see any need to go much beyond 20-25. Also, find a way to get your legs in cold water/ice ASAP after the run and plan on getting protein in your system within a couple of hours of the run (burger/bbq/chili/cheese/raw monkey meat, etc). I totally like ultrachick's suggestion for approach to the GCM. If you are "targeting" a good run at CMM, your goal marathon, I wouldn't push any harder than her suggestion for GCM. Same suggestion for post run as above, ice the legs (I'm talking in submersion from toe to groin/hip in ice water...this is voodoo wicked-crazy good stuff!) Eat raw meat, rotted road kill will do. CMM, run your race plan for the goal marathon. If you choose to ignore ultrachick's suggestion for GCM and run it hard, skip this one and prepare for SJ. Chill legs and try a red meat smoothie afterwards. Recovery post each race/long run: I believe it is important to get the legs moving after the stress of long runs/races. I will make an effort to get out the next day, if at all possible (feet not swollen to 2x normal size, not protruding bones, etc.). Basically, if I can stuff my feet into any of my running shoes, I'll go for a slow run the day after...it may only be 2-4 miles, but it really helps out. Make the second day after a total rest day if you need it... load up on protein in the days leading up to the ultra...don't worry so much about carbs. When you get closer to SJ, we can talk more about mental prep. Let us know how it's going...should be interesting. Lynn B

            ""...the truth that someday, you will go for your last run. But not today—today you got to run." - Matt Crownover (after Western States)


            who knows...

              To clarify: yes. I know. But assume unchangeable stupidity on my part (should be easy) and go from there.
              My apologies; I didn't mean to imply anything by my response. Also, nota bene: modified my previous post to add "at your running log."
              "There is no I in εγω." --Unknown author, source of possible, but in no way certain, Greek origin


              Blaine Moore (MM#2867)

                I would definitely not take the time between completely off; that'd be a mistake. Just keep the miles low and easy. I also recommend treating the first marathon as a workout rather than a race. That's what I just did and had a lot of fun doing it. Of course, I'm only running 2 marathons, and they are 5 weeks apart, so my schedule is a little easier.

                Run to Win
                24 Marathons, 17 Ultras, 16 States (Full List)



                  My apologies; I didn't mean to imply anything by my response. Also, nota bene: modified my previous post to add "at your running log."
                  No offense taken. I was serious about me being stupid. But I suspected we'd go through with our stunt, and I've already paid for the marathons ... So the 42 and the 2 x 26.2 are already a given. So telling me not to do them is both very good and very useless advice. What I was looking for was the best way to maximize the rest time between, assuming the schedule didn't change. I can still bail on Strolling Jim. But now that I've actually tasted the distance, I'd like to do it officially. And I'm still open to advice on making the most of very short rest periods between runs. ------------------------ And since I'm allowed to high-jack my own thread, I have some questions about how much and what to carry. I suspect the answer is: carry as little as possible. But what do you carry with you? Forget the 100 mile races for now. What do you carry on a 50 miler, with at least some support and aid stations? On our 42 mile jaunt, I carried way too much. I'd read about all the food people eat on ultras so I carried pretzels and cookies and bananas and Gatorade and water and Gu and energy bars and toilet paper and I could go on but I won't. The pack probably only weighed 10 pounds, but wow it made a difference. It hurt going up and down hills, more than it should have. Which would have been fine ... if I'd used the stuff. But I didn't. I had one power bar and I did eat the pretzels. The rest was a waste - I didn't even need the Gu, and dropped the pack at a water stop at mile 27 or so. If I do Strolling Jim, I want to carry as little as I can. Should I carry nothing at all (assuming I can get my fiancee to hang out for 8 hours and feed me along the way)? I realize this topic has surely been beaten to death in ultra circles, so I won't be offended if you just post a link. All I know is I REALLY overestimated what I needed to carry at that distance.
                  E-mail: JakeKnight2002@aol.com
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                  You'll ruin your knees!

                    Looks like they will have water every couple of miles, with aid stations up to 10 miles apart. Based on that, I would carry 1 hand held water bottle (refill as needed from jugs they provide and drink from bottle to avoid stopping for water every 2 miles), a pack of Cliff Shot Blocks in case I need a little shot of energy before I get to an aid station and don't have support (more on that later). I'd consider carrying 2 bottles, as it is likely that the course isn't covered much and may be intense from heat/sun perspective. I'd probably keep my favorite electolyte drink in the second bottle (CLIP2 from Succeed). I might even carry 2 packs of blocks, which would be 4 servings (3 blocks per serving)...and plan on eating a serving at about 15, 25 mile points and two servings just in case. I'd still eat from the aid stations...mostly salty, definitely peanut butter and jelly if they have it... Oh, and I'd have electrolyte capsules, I use S-Caps, probably 2/hour for me...more if it's 70's or higher and sunny and/or humid. As for support, I tend to prefer not having it. The reason is that I get too caught up in the logistics of when/where to meet and lose too much mental focus worrying if I am ahead/behind schedule and risk missing a planned meeting...not worth it (to me). You could put extra stuff in a drop bag if you like...you know, to replenish your energy stores and electrolyte capsules, etc. Sometimes a change of shirt is nice, but totally unnecessary. I'm sure there's more...

                    ""...the truth that someday, you will go for your last run. But not today—today you got to run." - Matt Crownover (after Western States)

                      Thanks, Lynn. That's perfect. I have some things to learn about the nutrition involved and the logistics of it all. That's a good point on working with a crew; I know I stress out enough during marathons when I'm supposed to be seeing somebody. I can imagine its pretty bad if they're supposed to be carrying something you really need. I'll have to look up the Cliff Shot blocks and the electrolyte stuff. Nobody uses plain old sports drinks, huh?
                      E-mail: JakeKnight2002@aol.com
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                        Okay, so the first 42, and the 2 X 26.2 are in the bag ... Strolling Jim on Saturday, in 5 days. Legs are thrashed. Any brilliant advice on what to do in the next 5 days? I ran a very slow 3 miles yesterday, taking today off completely I think. I don't need to run fast this weekend. Just need to be able to stay on my feet.
                        E-mail: JakeKnight2002@aol.com
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                        You'll ruin your knees!

                          "you've come far, pilgrim" Nice job on CMM, by the way...trashed sounds about right. I'd stay heavy on the protein today and tomorrow, just push good stuff for muscle recovery. Tomorrow off is fine, but I'd probably try to get out for a very easy 3 or 4, even if I had to walk some. I believe it's good to keep the legs moving (although the only moving I'm doing now is cross training Sad). Take off on Thu/Fri if you like. Hydrate! Good luck on Sat. Lynn B

                          ""...the truth that someday, you will go for your last run. But not today—today you got to run." - Matt Crownover (after Western States)


                          A Dance with Monkeys

                            I don't need to run fast this weekend. Just need to be able to stay on my feet.
                            Fast? As in fast = 10:11 per mile? Not fast > 10:11 per mile? Just wonderin'
                              Fast? As in fast = 10:11 per mile? Not fast > 10:11 per mile?
                              Your math is perfect. Still pondering the fast option. I mean "fast."
                              E-mail: JakeKnight2002@aol.com
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                              A Dance with Monkeys

                                So my whole family is gathering this weekend. In Louisville. Somehow I did not get the message. Even though my wife did. Crap crap crap. Crap. I may gotta go there. Friday-Sunday. Long way from Louisville to Wartrace. Crap.
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