Forums >Racing>2024 Advanced Training and Racing Thread (still competitive jerks)
Hot Weather Complainer
Mark - Really nice race. I agree it's tough to get the first km right in a 5km when you don't run them often. You know you need to push but it's so easy to push too hard. And on the flip side, if you take too long to wake up you might lose time you'll never get back.
My week - Another really solid one. The two workouts on Wednesday and Saturday felt amazingly comfortable. Saturday was a really good test and confidence builder in my fitness. That 2km kickdown felt really good with no sign of cramp. I had 2 500ml Precision 1500 drinks and 3 gels and no hint of cramp.
5km: 18:34 11/23 │ 10km: 39:10 8/23 │ HM: 1:26:48 9/23 │ M: 3:34:49 6/23
2024 Races:
Motorway Half Marathon February 25, 2024 1:29:55
Christchurch Half-Marathon April 21, 2024 1:27:34
Selwyn Marathon June 2, 2024
Dunedin Half Marathon September 15, 2024
Intl. correspondent
Keen - Yup yup it's not as easy to eat enough protein to fuel training. At 80kg I'd need to eat at least 160g, that's about half a kg of chicken or 640g of red meat. I'm working on it though.
Dave - Thanks for the race report, sorry to hear about the lower back pain.
Mark - Outstanding! So fast!
Marathons - Recently the legendary running coach Renato Canova has posted Emile Cairess entire training block on Letsrun.Then this other coach John Davis wrote a very interesting article about it.It might bring you some new ideas to try in your training.https://runningwritings.com/2024/05/renato-canova-marathon-training-emile-cairess.html
Me - My concerns with nutrition originally started with me trying to shed some weight, but then that evolved to overall health.I want to keep diabetes and high blood pressure away, and exercising is only part of that.
It's very hard to break bad habits, but I've been slow chipping away at them year over year. Increasing protein intake, reducing how much bread and sweets I consume, eating more fiber, more natural and less processed foods.
I had a nice week. I need to get back to aerobic training. I'm now happy with the mileage, so I'll try to keep 2 workouts per week, one aerobic, one anaerobic. I'm still very far from running 2 minutes 30 seconds on the 800. Once I reach there, I'll start thinking how to get down to 2 minutes 20 seconds. It will be a fun journey.
I'm also slowly working my way down to lower stack shoes with the goal of eventually run most of my easy runs in minimalist shoes.
Wednesday's runs are now done with the Lems Primal Zen which are only 14mm in height. I'd like to slowly replace all my shoes with lower stack shoes over the next 2 years. The goal is not the minimalist shoes per se, but rather the added strength and longevity that I expect them to give me.
And I'm sticking to my routine to improve balance, with 4x (1 minute balancing on left leg, 1 minute balancing on right leg), adding variations on the later reps to make it more difficult, like raising the heel a bit while balancing in one leg. I then use my hands against a wall to help keep balanced, with the goal of eventually not needing that.
M: 65'E
T: 8x200 w 2'E (35.2, 35.9, 36.1, 36.7, 35.7, 36.0, 36.8, 34.6) avg 35.8
W: 40'E
T: 800m time trial in 2:38.8, then 5x100m
F: 65'E
S: 60'E
S: 90'E (rainy and windy)
PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:53 2023 - 10K 37:55 2023 - HM 1:21:59 2021
Up next: some 800m race (or time trials) / Also place in the top 20% in a trail race
Tool to generate Strava weekly
flavio Thanks for sharing that article. Maybe it will generate a discussion or two. I'll likely mention something from it soon.
My Week
Tuesday was my first workout in a while. It went fine, but the heat got to me towards the end. Need time to acclimate. The first race of the Twilight series, the track 2 mile, is on the 30th but part of me wants to find a random 5k to hop into before then as a rust buster. My semester just ended. It was hell to say the least. I get the next week off and then I teach a 5 week summer class. This will be my first time teaching my own course. Should be interesting. I'm not thrilled that the class starts at 10:30 am but running early in the day will help me avoid the heat anyway.
Mother of Cats
Dave - I think that was a really strong marathon performance. Some days we have it and some days we don't. If you ran the best race you had in you that day (as it certainly reads like you did) then it's a race you can be proud of.
DKTrotter - I don't think I had a chance to post here, but....I thought your marathon performance was sold, given the weather. I also completely agree with your observation that your cross training early in the cycle came with some welcome benefits for the marathon.
CK- you asked about Twin Cities....my goal right now is to run the fastest possible time I can that day. I won't have a good sense of what is possible until closer to race day. RIght now, sub-3:20 seems like a reasonable goal.
Marky_Mark - nice job on the 5K!
Steve - you are in a good place training and fitness wise - very good to see!
Flavio - balancing-wise, if you want to go crazy, you can try single leg balancing calf raises in the center of a room (so nothing near you). One thing I've learned about balance work - even if you are not touching a wall or chair or whatever, balancing is easier when you are closer to an object and harder when you are away from everything - you don't realize it, but you are using the presence of something near you to judge your own position in space.
Merkle - have you considered the Lighthorse track meet - Down The Stretch Track Fest — Light Horse Track Club
Nutrition: so is it the consensus of this crew that the importance of proper fueling is overemphasized during a marathon and underemphasized during training?
Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.
And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.
Re: the second part—my nutrition habits during training are not intended for the purpose of benefiting training, but just for general health.
Dave
Mmmm Bop
I personally think that fuelling is mostly unnecessary and a waste of money during training runs and races…unless it’s a particularly hot day. Just eat a decent meal and be hydrated the night before any race or long run.
I did get sucked into all the hype early on….reading running magazines and all the things you needed to improve your time…the latest GPS watch because it’s really important that you gauge your HR, plus a technical t shirt that isn’t cotton will also help and of course the cheater shoes!
The bottom line is that running is a very simple thing….you put one foot in front of the other and try to do that as fast as possible…and the more you do that, the faster you get! That’s it folks. 👍
5k - 17:53 (4/19) 10k - 37:53 (11/18) Half - 1:23:18 (4/19) Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)
As Keen has said, a lot of people don't eat enough during training (although, the body is very effective at adapting as well), but also don't often eat the right stuff. In particular, protein and good fats tend to get neglected in favour of carbs.
It's really just maths that energy out during a marathon is significant and probably exceeds what your body can store. But exactly how much you need to put in, and when, is a pretty individual thing, I guess. Certainly the trend for the elites is towards very specific, individualised race fuelling plans. Most of us probably can't be bothered with that, but no doubt having something helps. I don't think it's gonna be the sort of thing that wrecks a race if it's wrong, but it might be the thing that helps find an extra 1 or 2%.
3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)
10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)
* Net downhill course
Last race: Runway5 / National 5k Champs, 16:22, National Masters AG Champ!
Up next: Still working on that...
"CONSISTENCY IS KING"
It depends on the person. If it turns out that my high salt sweating is the reason for the cramp, then hydrating the night before doesn't cut it for me, I need to be replacing sodium or at about 2 hours I have problems. I think some people may go over the top with gels but it seems unlikely to me that you would perform as well without topping up the glycogen in the marathon than if you did.
Race report - Runway 5 / National 5k Champs
After a few years of being told that people don’t want technical stuff in road courses, and just want to run fast, I guess Athletics NZ finally got the message because the inaugural NZ 5k Road Champs were hosted at the Runway5 event, part of the Rotorua Marathon. As the name suggests, the event is run on the Rotorua Airport runway.
It’s an evening race (after the airport is closed to air traffic for the day!), which I’m not a huge fan of. However, it does make for a pretty cool event set-up with a live DJ, lights and a fun atmosphere. The weather is pretty much perfect (7C / 45F with no wind), and given the race is after sunset, I figure it’s basically like my normal ideal running conditions – cool and dark – just at the other end of the day.
The race itself starts just outside the terminal building, and goes from the taxiway, out to the centre of the main runway. From there you turn left and head to the southern end of the runway, turn around, head back down to the northern end, turn around, back to the taxiway and a couple of turns take you back to the home stretch in front of the terminal building.
There were a few errors with entries and people being entered in the ‘social’ race, not the championship event, so it’s a little hard to know who the competition is. There is a strong field of open and U20 athletes, and I know Sjors Corporaal is there so he will likely be the fastest Masters runner by some distance (dude can still run a sub-9 minute 3000m at age 46, and is a monster on the trails as well).
Warm up is a few laps around the carpark, then on to the airport tarmac for some strides in front of the terminal building. I finish my warm-up and come back to see my wife, and Miss 7 having a great time dancing to the music (Miss almost-1 looks slightly bemused by the whole thing). Ironically the DJ is Brad Luiten – a guy who helped me a lot when I started running, both by being the guy everyone had to try and beat (I eventually did!), and encouraging me along with solo and club events. Then he met a woman who did Crossfit and that was the end of his running career.
The start is slightly later than expected (7:40pm) due to the incoming aircraft, I mean the previous race, also running behind schedule. I don’t really recognise many Masters runners on the start line other than Matt Parsonage and Nick Pannett, who are both pretty strong and should comfortably be somewhere in the 16 minute range. My goal was low to mid-16’s, having run high-16’s at Parkrun a couple weeks ago, albeit without emptying the tank for that one. But I haven’t raced a 5k in almost 5 years so who knows – although I doubt I’ll be anywhere near my time from that race (15:39).
Anyways, 5k is short so the rest of this RR will be basically in the style of my internal monologue.
I’m on the left side of the start. Maybe I should’ve been closer to the right. The first turn goes right, so I should be on the inside. Ah crap, the starter’s ready, too late to move now. Here we go. Those young guys will be quick, don’t try and keep up with them. Find a rhythm and settle in. First u-turn, oh these are fairly wide and rounded off nicely, they’ll slow things down a bit, but not a lot. How many are there again? Must be 4. Two on the taxiway, two on the runway.
OK, that lead pack is pulling away now. Let them go. There’s a couple guys ahead. Don’t recognise the younger guy, but the older guy is definitely Nick Pannett. Were there any masters guys in the lead pack? I didn’t see, but I bet Sjors is there. Here we go onto the runway. Boy it’s dark now we’re away from the terminal building. Trust your rhythm, trust your feet. Was that a stormwater grate? Who knows. Just trust your feet. OK just run straight for those big lights in the distance. Are we catching Nick? I think we are.
Wait how is that marshal moving so fast? Are they on a Segway? No they’re on roller skates. How cool! Roller-skating marshals! That’s a new one. 1st k is 3:07. OK that was a bit hot, but I feel good. Just keep the rhythm.
Cool, one end of the runway. Around the turn, then it’s basically 2k in a straight line. OK we’re definitely catching Nick. Is he in my AG or is he 45-49? Dunno. This bit is going to feel quite long I think. Trust the rhythm, it’s nice to feel the legs stretch out, this is a fun pace to run at as long as I can hold it. 2nd k flashes up at 3:14. OK, that’s perfect. Just keep that moving. Past Nick! I guess he went out too hot. If I was 3:07 for that first k he must’ve been around 3-flat.
Boy it is really dark out here. Almost wish I had a head torch. What’s the HR doing? 175… OK that’s about right. What was that flash? Was that a photographer? Of course they took a photo at the exact moment I was looking at my watch.
OK this is starting to hurt a bit. The legs are good but the breathing is getting heavier. That end of the runway still seems a fair way off. 3rd k is 3:17. Not bad, let’s hold it around there. Am I catching that young guy ahead of me? Maybe.
Finally at the other end of the runway. OK, we get to turn for home. Is Nick catching up? I don’t think I saw him at all at the turnaround there. Is that a side stitch or just my lungs burning? OK this is getting tough. Only 1600m to go though. That’s just one mile repeat. Dig it in. Km 4 split is 3:19, OK that probably reflects how I’m feeling. Focus on trying to catch that young guy, he must only be 10 seconds or so ahead. Hey, there go the lead women in the other direction (they started 5 minutes after the men). Can’t tell who’s leading as it’s too dark across the runway. Where did all the oxygen go?
OK, here’s the taxiway. Must be only 400m from here. Left turn, OK maybe there’s a bit left in the legs, let’s push it a bit more. There’s the final right turn on to the home straight, boy that was a weird shaped corner, sort of a wide-ish hairpin. There’s the finish line! Must be 150m to home, ah hell let’s gas it.
Sprrrriiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnttttttttt!
Oh sh!t I’m going really fast, this feels awesome, maybe I should’ve pushed it sooner. “Here comes Mark Paterson flying down the home straight” on the PA – damn right! Power it all the way to the finish line and that’s that!
High fives with the family before a good coughing fit, which almost turned into a puke, after sucking in a ton of cold air. The official time was 16:22 which was good enough for 2nd overall in the Masters and 1st in my age group. I’m very stoked to win my 4th individual National Championship - my first since 2020 and the infamous Race at the End of the World for 10,000m champs just before Covid lockdowns kicked in. There are faster Masters runners out there, no doubt, but you can only race the people that show up, and I had a good 20 seconds on them. It turns out my AG was actually the most competitive of the Masters AG's as well, with 4 of the top 5 Masters runners (they all finished within 25 seconds of me too!).
I’m reminded what a fun distance 5km is to race – you get to go fast, and your legs aren’t wrecked afterwards. Playing the race over in my head, I actually think I have real room for improvement. I could’ve held that last sprint for longer, so I think if I’d maybe gone out slightly slower, and really doubled down on the effort when things got hard around 3.5-4km, I might still get close to 16 flat on a good day. Definitely something to think about for the future. Running fast is fun.
16:22, 21st overall, 2nd Masters, 1st M40-44.
52 miles running and 90 minutes pool-running.M: 7 miles very easy (9:24) and upper body weights/core.T: 8 miles with 6 moderate Iwo Jima hills plus leg strengthwork. Sports massage in evening.W: 8 miles very easy on trails (10:06) followed by upper body weights/core.Th: 9 "miles" of pool-running and streaming pilates. `F: 9 miles with 3200, 1600 in 14:13 (7:14/6:59) and 6:45, with ~5 minute jog in between, followed by leg strengthwork.Sa: 8 miles very easy (9:25) plus drills/strides, followed by streaming pilates.Su: 12 miles easy (8:58) and streaming yoga.
I was still recovering from being sick at the start of the week, so I did Iwo Jima hills (500m to the top, 90 second jog, 100-200m downhill stride, and 45-60 second jog to bottom) as a form/gait workout. This meant that I kept the effort very limited - instead of trying to run hard or fast, I focused on good form while only picking up the pace slightly.
On Friday, I did my first track workout post-Boston. It went surprisingly well. I suspect a lot of this is that we changed my medications slightly after Boston. I've been stuck between two strengths of one of my neuro meds, with one being too little (legs are shaky and lack power) and the other being too much (leg muscles tend to contract randomly). We found a way to effectively get me to a middle strength dose, and the result is that I have much better control of my legs and gait, but still enough power and strength to run.
So now, my gait is much less of a limiter, which should make running fast and training much less complicated. I'm pretty excited about what this could mean for my fitness and race performances in the next few months.
dw—good news!
Meanwhile: I took 3 days off post-race then 26 miles the rest of the week, but I’m still feeling kind of wrecked. Some recovery time definitely needed.
Problem Child
Darkwave that’s awesome news on the meds. Are you already entered into NYC as an adaptive athlete? I assumed since you’re officially classified you just have to submit the paperwork.
also, is the classification a lifetime thing or do you need to be re-certified every 1/2/5/10 years? I didn’t pay enough attention this year to see if it was discussed. cal glad you’re back to running again. Any plans for another CIM Moose Mug?
JMac I hope your recovery is going well. The highs are so high because the lows are low. Don’t be too hard on yourself. Hope the girls enjoy spending lots of time with you now. Just remember summer is coming and that’s the WORST time to marathon train in NYC.
Me
I have an interview Wednesday. I have a friend who really helped me review stuff. Comparable to me helping him dip into marathon training, and I’ve put much more effort into this interview than any over the past 5 or so years. It actually looks appealing, and I think id like the job from more than the ‘anything better than my last job would be great’ stance. I’m still dealing with issues from the last job (mental health) and training seems to help/bring them out. Pretty sure I’m signing up for a local 50 miler this week. This is probably my only race since I didn’t get into NYC, and CIM is currently unappealing. After NYC lottery this year I don’t know if I REALLY want to get a qualifier again unless I can do a 2:45, and THAT isn’t happening. training was lots of the same rocky dirt road up and down. Yesterday’s long run was rough just because it became cold, and really windy for the final miles. I had to stop and tell a guy the road wasn’t getting any better and his vehicle would be fine. Lovely opportunity to combine my trail running (dirt road) and off roading. Again. another da I saw a guy BOMBING down this same hill late at night who then broke the sector shaft on his steering box. The sector shaft isn’t easy to replace. I told him he needed a few hundred bucks to replace it. With a broken sector shaft the only way you can turn the wheels is using your upper body. This would make putting it on a trailer an experience. Especially where he was at specifically.
sorry I haven’t been around much. I’ve been pulled so many ways and haven’t had the time commitment to chatting about running with the group as I did previously. I still check out everyone’s training. Hope everyone is well.
Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.
VDOT 53.37
5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22
Nutrition Question
i believe early on nutrition during training is important. The ‘one and done r’ marathon runners might be concerned about what they eat during running because more advanced runners tell them ‘nothing new on race day’ so they try out different dinners meals before various runs (workouts, long, doubles, etc) whereas someone with 7-10 marathons of experience probably doesn’t worry too much about how much caffeine they’re having before a speed workout until it actually causes a problem.
TL;DR beginner marathoners are more PROactive about their nutrition whereas experienced marathoners are REactive about it. Possibly because beginner marathoners are being given more free advice than experienced ones.
I think I do very similar to you diet-wise with the exception of the daily ice-cream. I'm very jealous of you with your sugar eating super powers
I think I do very similar to you diet-wise with the exception of the daily ice-cream.
I'm very jealous of you with your sugar eating super powers
My wife bought me a Ninja Creami Deluxe. She also bought 4 extra containers and I bought four myself. I believe they’re two pints each. I haven’t been making as much because I haven’t been training but I can put down two pints no problem. A coworker of my wife, and a few online fitness folks, add protein powder to their ice cream. So eating a pint every night might be a little healthier.
RP - I think beginning marathoners are more likely to treat all things with equal importance. They’ll focus on in-race fueling because it’s on the list. Even if it’s really more important to be running 50-70mpw in training. Also the mileage volume is harder. And maybe a bad idea if they only had a 20-30mpw base.