Goal of Sub-3 Hour Marathon (Read 15824 times)

    Please everyone let me know what you think.  My 10k times and half marathon times all point to a sub 3 but nothing factors for the last 10k of the marathon.

     

    Lastly just a question to throw out there I see on a lot of marathon pace predictor charts there is an element allowed for fading a certain % of time per mile from a certain point in a marathon.  I was just wondering is there any guideline for this as to what to use when calculating this.  So in the end you end up with a race pace/ pre-fade pace and post fade pace.

     

     

    Mileage is the one factor that matters for the last 10k of a marathon.  The calculators will be pretty accurate from 10k to marathon if you've got a big enough base of mileage--that means how many miles  you've run not just in the preceding 6 months before the marathon but 18 and 36 months.  At 3000 miles a year and 70+ miles per week in marathon training, my 10k and 13.1 mi times predict my marathon time very well.

     

    You don't plan your race pace assuming a fade, you train and pace yourself in the race to avoid fading.

     

    And don't underestimate the value of experience in racing.  Your next time you will be better prepared physically and mentally for the last 6 miles.

    Runners run.

    flovesparko


      I have to agree to what mikeymike said about not planning for a fade.  I was just giving the % that I've heard that some calculators use.  I usually fade just because of improper pacing and mileage except for my last marathon.  I negative split because I still didn't trust those calculators that said I could run much faster based on my 10K and half Marathon races.   I lacked the confidence that my training would let me run at those predicted paces for the entire marathon.  According to some experts negative splitting is also not the way to go.   One of these days I will get it right.
      DoppleBock


        I think of a load of miles @ MP as pretty useless - yes I have done it in the past.

         

        Its too fast to be easy and so the recovery is long

         

        Its too slow to affect LAT

         

        I guess it can give you good general strength, but its not for me.

         

        I would rather run a nice 20 miler with the 1st 10-16 miles easy (8:00 pace) and then do a speed workout.

         

        Like:

         

        12-14 easy and then 4-5x5 minutes @ 5k pace with 5 minute recoveries

         

        or

         

        10 easy and 4x2 miles @ LAT with 1/2 mile recoveries

         

        or

         

        16 easy and then 20-25 minutes @ LAT

         

        Workouts that teach you to run fast and relaxed when tired - These are not hero workouts, when you get done you should feel like you could have done more.  You get a long run + a speed workout.  I did 21 miles with 4x5 @ 5k this monday and 18 miles with 22 minutes @ LAT this morning.

         

        When I quit running long MP workouts, I got a bit faster.

         

        Just my 2-cents

        http://a-big-horse.blogspot.com/ 

        2013 Goals ~ Mar < 3:00, 5M < 29, 10k < 35  

         

        Ger


          OK so with the Belfast Marathon on the 3rd May 2010 and my Marathon done on the 26th Oct 2009 what should I do now in the next few weeks. When I started training for Dublin my long run was 8 miles, I really do not want to go back to there so do you think I could start at a higher long run or weekly mileage. How many weeks lead up do you use in the lead up to a marathon any sample training plans you may have that could help me would be very much appreciated.

           

            OK so with the Belfast Marathon on the 3rd May 2010 and my Marathon done on the 26th Oct 2009 what should I do now in the next few weeks. When I started training for Dublin my long run was 8 miles, I really do not want to go back to there so do you think I could start at a higher long run or weekly mileage. How many weeks lead up do you use in the lead up to a marathon any sample training plans you may have that could help me would be very much appreciated.

             

             

            8 mile long runs?  Oh God no.  You can do a reverse taper and get back to pretty close to what you were doing pre-Dublin, just with a shorter long run.  I'd keep the long run between 90 minutes and 2 hours until about 8-10 weeks before the marathon, then start to add some bigger long runs in.

             

            I'm not a fan of 18 and 24 week training plans...I'm sort of always training so there's no need to start looking that far out at one specific race.  I normally consider marathon training to be about 8 weeks, assuming you've maintained a good base.  I think the culture of 18 and 24 week training plans comes from the fact many hardly do any running unless they're specifically training for a marathon.  That's a tough way to make long term progress, for me anyway.

            Runners run.

            DoppleBock


              I would agree 8 - 10 weeks with taper is a good amount of time to take a solid base and mold it into a decent marathon time.  But I also do long runs year round, so its a matter of getting some extra speed workouts to get ready.

              http://a-big-horse.blogspot.com/ 

              2013 Goals ~ Mar < 3:00, 5M < 29, 10k < 35  

               

                 

                 

                They say for every 5 pounds, you take 5 seconds off your marathon pace. 

                 

                That does not seem much.

                 

                I am sure you mean that 5 pounds = 5 minutes.

                 

                Otherwise... who would bother losing any weight?

                DoppleBock


                   

                  That does not seem much.

                   

                  I am sure you mean that 5 pounds = 5 minutes.

                   

                  Otherwise... who would bother losing any weight?

                   

                  Pace - 5 seconds of pace = 2 minutes 11 seconds over a marathon.

                   

                  I actually believe its between 1-2 seconds per mile per pound.  If you plug it into a V02max chart it would be 2 seconds per pound, but that would assume a person is a very effeceint runner.  It also depends on you total weight - A 110# women losing 5 pounds (assuming not too much loss) would gain more than a 200# person losing 5#

                   

                   

                   

                  http://a-big-horse.blogspot.com/ 

                  2013 Goals ~ Mar < 3:00, 5M < 29, 10k < 35  

                   

                     

                    That does not seem much.

                     

                    I am sure you mean that 5 pounds = 5 minutes.

                     

                    Otherwise... who would bother losing any weight?

                     

                    Yes, I meant 5 lbs = 5 seconds per mile. Btw, I have no personal experience that validates this, but the concept makes sense in theory. In reality there are probably too many other factors also changing to really measure this.

                       

                      When I quit running long MP workouts, I got a bit faster.

                       

                      Just my 2-cents

                       

                       

                      Interesting. One of my strategies heading into my December marathon was to do a lot of running at MP. Last Saturday's 10 miler was an example--but I did feel like it took a lot out of me and has made me question how feasible it is to get a lot of MP running in during this specificity phase. I know I will have to choose between bumping miles or those long MP workouts.

                       

                      I'm thinking 4-6 mile sessions at MP are really good for grooving the pace, but after that, recovery gets dicey. Then again, maybe I just ran too damn hard on Saturday while also bumping the miles up a bit.


                      I'm back!

                        Interestingly, one of the changes in Pfitzinger's 2nd edition was the addition of more MP runs. He says "Over the past few years, the benefits of marathon-pace runs have become more fully recognized, and we have included more of these sessions in this edition of Advanced Marathoning", without elaborating on those benefits. (He does describe all the benefits of MP runs in a different section, but I don't think that text changed in the new version.)


                        I think we already had this discussion a hundred pages back or so...

                        DoppleBock


                          I think we experiment and do what works for us.  Everytime I went out and tried 20-25K @ MP as part of a 20-22 miler ... It either destroyed me or I failed and it destroyed my confidence.  But I think one of the issues was it was "Planned".  When I do a 20-22 miler and I plan on running it LSD pace and I feel good and do the 2nd half of the out and back at MP - It seems to work well.  Although more recently I have opted for last 4 miles @ LAT if I feel good.

                           

                          Just use my 2 cents as something to ponder.

                           

                           


                           

                           

                          Interesting. One of my strategies heading into my December marathon was to do a lot of running at MP. Last Saturday's 10 miler was an example--but I did feel like it took a lot out of me and has made me question how feasible it is to get a lot of MP running in during this specificity phase. I know I will have to choose between bumping miles or those long MP workouts.

                           

                          I'm thinking 4-6 mile sessions at MP are really good for grooving the pace, but after that, recovery gets dicey. Then again, maybe I just ran too damn hard on Saturday while also bumping the miles up a bit.

                          http://a-big-horse.blogspot.com/ 

                          2013 Goals ~ Mar < 3:00, 5M < 29, 10k < 35  

                           

                          DoppleBock


                            I have become anti-hero workouts in the last year or so.

                             

                            But then again - I am old

                            http://a-big-horse.blogspot.com/ 

                            2013 Goals ~ Mar < 3:00, 5M < 29, 10k < 35  

                             

                              I think we already had this discussion a hundred pages back or so...

                               

                              Indeed.  Possibly more than once as well.  Lately all of RunningAhead has felt like groundhog day, but it could just be I'm cranky from still being post-marathon.  I do think October is when all the "how do I get dressed?" threads start to pop up every year.   Could be my imagination but it seems there are more threads on where to buy cloths, what to wear in certain weather, what kind of shoes to wear, etc. right now.

                               

                              As for the MP miles, I think they are hugely beneficial but can be overdone.  I also think, DB, that the timing of your stopping the big MP workouts and getting faster could also be due to the miles you'd accumulated up to that point finally soaking in.  It's really hard to isolate one change you made in training and say the a result was due specifically to that one thing.

                              Runners run.

                                 

                                 

                                 It's really hard to isolate one change you made in training and say the a result was due specifically to that one thing.

                                 

                                 

                                Right. And by the same token, who knows whether that workout took a lot out of me because I haven't been getting much sleep or because I picked up a small virus from the college kids or X other reasons.

                                 

                                It's an art--a dark art.