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Heavy squats & deadlifts (Read 191 times)


Still kicking

    Thanks Sdizazzo!

    One thing I can tell you from actual experience, and with almost complete certainty, is that if you are going for heavy squat one rep PR's, you won't get anywhere near Boston qualifying run training in. Not even close. If there are exceptions to this, I've not heard of it. Lifting and running can work well together, but not power lifting and competitive running. And I would certainly put Boston Qualifying in the competitive running category (but not elite running). Just my own experience. When I was lifting heavy, on a 3 week cycle for squat and bench PR's, my bodyweight got as high as 193 (still lean). There was no way I could put in the hard miles and spicific run workouts, needed to run a BQ (3:00 at the time) in fact It was very hard for me to run a 4:00 marathon while maintaining my heavy lifting schedule. By comparison, before I started lifting, I weighted 140, and was a sub 3 hour marathoner. That was all 20-30 years ago. I feel fortunate that I was healthy enough to experience both extremes. Now at in my mid 50's, at 145 pounds, and running well, and lifting moderately (and rarely heavy) I'm maintaining a balance I really like. And… hope to qualify for Boston this fall.


    Not dead. Yet.

      Thank both of you for your advice.  Looking at your logs, I can tell I'm not anywhere near the athletes you are.  While I do plan to qualify for Boston one day, its a very long term goal.  I wouldn't mind if it happened ten years from now; when I'm older and it's easier to qualify.  You can tell from my log that I don't have the miles and have not even run a full marathon yet.  It's still a dream at this point.  In the mean time I just want to keep enjoying both.  This year I've been concentrating on lifting, but I have a half in late October that I will be ramping up for.  We'll see how much of the lifting I will be able to fit in when I get up to 30-35 miles a week.  Sounds like the answer is no *heavy* lifting, but some moderate weights will be ok.

       

      Marylander, please send me an example of your system.  The last few months I have been doing all three big lifts in one workout.  Ten sets each where I try to get a PR if I feel like I can.  I love the workout, but it destroys me.  If I only did that workout once a month, then maybe I could correlate that with an easy week in my running schedule and then get back to hard running the next week.

       

      Appreciate all the insight and advice!

      How can we know our limits if we don't test them?

          I wouldn't mind if it happened ten years from now; when I'm older and it's easier to qualify.  

         

        Yeah, good luck with that plan. Let me know how much easier it gets for you as you get older.

         

        As a positive contribution, and as someone who has qualified for Boston while also following a strength training program with squats and deadlifts, I'll echo deanT's remarks - power lifting and running don't go well together. I'd still lift (relatively) heavy while running but when running volume goes up, I reduce strength training volume. I knock the strength training down to 2 days per week, maintain the weight/intensity as much as I can and reduce the volume to something like 3-4 sets of 5-6 reps. You will maintain strength better if you reduce volume vs. reducing weight at the same volume. So when running a lot,. I'd do something like:

         

        Mon: Squat 3x5 , Bench 4x6, deadlift 3x3 or 1x5 after some warm-ups

        Thurs: Squat or front squat 3x5, Overhead press 4x6, power clean 5x3 (or chins/pull-ups if you don't want to clean)

         

        when a race was coming up, I'd not lift for that week or so to keep legs fresh.

         

        Periodization is your friend. Alternate strength cycles (add hill work to your running too) with running/speed/race cycles). When healthy and training, I'll hit the weights harder in the winter and summer since Fall and Spring are when most races are.

         

          Wow, I've never done 10 worksets for any lift. That's a lot!

           

          Here's the low volume plan that I use. This is actually my very last squat training cycle from just before I started running with my daughter about 7 years ago. I let a lot of my strength slip since I didn't put serious effort into finding a balance between running and lifting. I'm just now putting that effort in and trying to get back some strength (more and more difficult as time passes).

           

          I do this workout just once per week (monday) with deadlifts on a similar plan once per week (friday). You'll see that each week consists of just 3 worksets (warmups not shown) using decreasing weight between sets. The first two sets are done as normal squats while the third is done as a paused set (three full seconds paused at the very bottom of the squat - these are kind of brutal). Deadlift was similar but I did the final set standing on top of 45 lb plates for a little extra ROM. The weight goes up for 4 weeks then backs off, you can see the 4 week pattern in the numbers below. I set it up by picking my goal 3 reps for the end of the program and work backwards from there. You can get very strong following a plan like this consistently while keeping your legs relatively fresh (due to the lower volume).

           

          <colgroup><col style="width: 48pt;" span="4" width="64" /> </colgroup>
            Set 1 Set 2 Set 3
          Week 1 3x375 3x345 3x305
          Week 2 3x395 3x365 3x325
          Week 3 3x415 3x385 3x345
          Week 4 3x435 3x405 3x365
          Week 5 3x395 3x365 3x325
          Week 6 3x415 3x385 3x345
          Week 7 3x435 3x405 3x365
          Week 8 3x455 3x425 3x385
          Week 9 3x415 3x385 3x345
          Week 10 3x435 3x405 3x365
          Week 11 3x455 3x425 3x385
          Week 12 3x475 3x445 3x405
          Week 13 3x435 3x405 3x365
          Week 14 3x455 3x425 3x385
          Week 15 3x475 3x445 3x405
          Week 16 3x500    


          Old , Ugly and slow

            Marylander nice arms.

             

            Here is another question for lifers/runners

             

            Can you lift heavy twice  a week and run 30-40 miles a week if it is all easy.

             

            I am running half that but would like to get to 30-40 by end of the year.

             

            My goal is to get stronger and to run as much as possible for health.

            first race sept 1977 last race sept 2007

             

            2014goals   1300  miles  , 190 pounds , deadlift 400 touch my toes

            jimmyb


              Wouldn't running hills--either repeats or just having a lot of them on the course-- have a similar strengthening effect, but be more beneficial because you're running? Squats seem like they would be more conducive to a jumper than a runner.

              Log    PRs

                Wow, I've never done 10 worksets for any lift. That's a lot!

                 

                Not sure if you were commenting about my routine but it's only 3 work sets for each lift. 7-10 total work sets over 3 exercises in a single workout. 3-4 sets of 5 or 6 reps. And it's just one example. I change it up. but 10 work sets for a single exercise is something a 15 year-old bro does on "chest day".  But I have no reason to pursue max singles or heavy triples - I'm not a powerlifter. And my spinal stenosis won't allow it anyway.

                 

                Wouldn't running hills--either repeats or just having a lot of them on the course-- have a similar strengthening effect, but be more beneficial because you're running? Squats seem like they would be more conducive to a jumper than a runner.

                 

                It's not either/or. Both are beneficial. Squats, done correctly, are a posterior chain exercise and strengthen your hips, glutes, adducters, hamstrings, back, shoulders and quads. If it's all quads, you're doing it wrong. I truly believe they've made me a better hill runner.

                 

                Can you lift heavy twice  a week and run 30-40 miles a week if it is all easy.

                Yes. I've done it on 50-60 miles per week. With a good chunk of that mileage being quality work like tempos, intervals and hills. 70 mpw gets a little tough (time and recovery). Again, reduce the volume, not necessarily the intensity.

                 

                  Not sure if you were commenting about my routine but it's only 3 work sets for each lift.

                   

                  *snip*

                   

                  Again, reduce the volume, not necessarily the intensity.

                   

                  I was referring to the OP's 10 sets. I definitely agree that a reduction in lifting volume, not intensity, is the way to go.

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