The Bible on The History Channel (Read 414 times)

FatSweatyBullDog


    So no one goes to heaven?

     

     

    Hmm...gonna have to disagree that anyone is worthy to enter the kingdom of Heaven, tested or not.

     

      So no one goes to heaven?

       

       

      "worthy"

      MTA: sorry for the 1 word response, but he said "gonna have to disagree that anyone is worthy to enter the kingdom of Heaven, tested or not."

      2014 Goals:

      #1: Do what I can do. <DOING>

      #2: 365 Hours training <NOPE, INJURED>

       

      mab411


      Proboscis Colossus

        So no one goes to heaven?

         

         

        Yep, KerCanDo got to it before I could.  That's the crux, so to speak, of the significance of Christ to Christianity.  Humanity lost its "worthiness" of closeness with God at the Fall (whether the creation narrative is taken literally or not, I think most mainstream Christians acknowledge that mankind is "fallen").  It's only through a byzantine system of laws (OT) and the sacrifice of Christ (NT) that we are made clean again.

        "God guides us on our journey, but careful with those feet." - David Lee Roth, of all people

          Grace not works.  Right on.

          Live the Adventure. Enjoy the Journey. Be Kind. Have Faith!


          Interval Junkie --Nobby

            Grace not works.  Right on.

             

            Would mind expanding on what "grace" means?

             

            I mean, "works" are pretty clear: do good; be virtuous; give to the poor; help a child in need.  All these can be done with an empty heart -- but they are Good.

             

            What is "grace" in contrast?  (without the works)

             

            Obviously, we come from different moral traditions -- but I'd like to hear the other side.  All I'm familiar with is pre-determined Calvinism, which I find very sad.

            2014 Goals:  sub-3 Marathon 

            Current Status 06/19: Pelvic stress-fracture = 6-weeks of no running.


            Feeling the growl again

               

              Would mind expanding on what "grace" means?

               

              I mean, "works" are pretty clear: do good; be virtuous; give to the poor; help a child in need.  All these can be done with an empty heart -- but they are Good.

               

              What is "grace" in contrast?  (without the works)

               

              Obviously, we come from different moral traditions -- but I'd like to hear the other side.  All I'm familiar with is pre-determined Calvinism, which I find very sad.

              Grace:   "the free and unmerited favor or beneficence of God"

               

              In other words, God takes mercy on us even though not one of us deserves it, as in the end we are all sinners.  And the only thing we have to do to get it is accept it through faith.

               

              One can do good works and even be a good person without believing in God.  These works do not save them because they still lack faith.  However someone who truly has faith will do good works and try to live a life that pleases God because of that belief.

               

              Works are therefore the result of faith and being saved, not a path to get there.

              "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

               

                What Spaniel said.  I spent a lot of years trying to be a good person thinking that is what did it. I thought following the rules was what brought about a great life. When I finally woke up to the truth that what brings about a great life is loving Jesus and having faith, it changed the way I did things and viewed the world.  I still do the best I can, but I no longer hold onto my false sense of control over the world. When I focus on Jesus and am thankful for his grace, in both good times and bad, I become the person I want to be. I cannot make or will myself into the perfect person. That's impossible.  Jesus first and then "following the rules" comes naturally because his guidance is given out of love to help me rather than the other way around which is rules first due to fear of not making it into heaven.  It may seem like a subtle difference, but it is really huge. It is the difference between joy and feeling like a failure. Jesus is life to the full.  Rules are not.

                Live the Adventure. Enjoy the Journey. Be Kind. Have Faith!


                Interval Junkie --Nobby

                  Great explanations.

                   

                  Completely foreign to me.  But probably not for the reason you assume.  I understand how you might understand doing good works as purely rule following, and how that would be insufficient for access to heaven.  I still disagree, but both views are supported by various flavors of Christianity.

                   

                  However, Aristotle has a similar definition of Virtue - where virtuous acts are done for virtuous reasons.  That is, the virtuous reason is a necessary condition for the act to virtuous.  I'd guess you would translate that to a Christian work is done for Christian reasons, ie through faith in Jesus.

                   

                  But the reason I find it odd, is because I don't think of doing good works as rule following.  Certainly some can do for that reason, but others do because it is the good thing to do.  You can take Jesus out of the equation here unless you want to bind Jesus and Good thereby having no other definition of 'good' w/o Jesus.  But that would lead to non-believers either doing 'good' in ignorance of Jesus, or it would be impossible for them to do 'good' -- which seems a bit odd.  For example, a stranger who donates his kidney is doing a good -- whether he believes in Jesus or not.

                   

                  A shame those who do good for good reasons are still forbidden from your heaven because they didn't do it for a Jesus reason.

                   

                  After the Second Vatican Council (1964), the Catholic Church revealed that even non-Christian believers, who do good deeds, may gain entrance to Catholic heaven . . . it's just very very hard.  MTA: in 2005 even atheists got a nod.

                   

                  Anyway, very interesting stuff. I'm glad your faith allows you to more easily do good deeds and live a more fulfilling life; that's all that's really important to the rest of us.  We all benefit from good deeds.

                  2014 Goals:  sub-3 Marathon 

                  Current Status 06/19: Pelvic stress-fracture = 6-weeks of no running.

                     

                    I am obviously in the group of folks who are in the nonbelieving group. (Call me agnostic, I.E. "uncertain what happens after death"), and I try to have a discussion with believers without being disrespectful.  I guess "curiosity is killing the cat" iwth me on how someone can see the ark story as a true thing, or a good thing.  (Again, remember, it seems a contradiction that God would kill toddlers, infants and unborn children in a flood... How can they be guilty of doing anything wrong?)

                     

                     ---In the times that the story was written, perhaps a man would only see a few hundred different animals in his lifetime, therefore to a man of 2,000 or more years ago, the ark/flood story would seem plausible.

                    But---In modern times, we know that there are over 100,000 various Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species, and the possibility of getting over 100,000 various types of animals/insects/flies/bugs/etc on a boat + floating it for 40 days:  Not possible.  Add to that, how would you get regional animals, like Arctic Polar bears to the location where the boat was built?.

                    FInally, can't a person "Believe fully in God", but yet be able to say "these stories in the bible were written by man, and the books of the bible selected by another group of men, so I do not believe the Ark Story to be true?"  (Because doesn't the ark story impossible?)  And this goes back to why would a Just god kill infants in a flood, or send a man to hell simply for not believing in him prior to their death, I.E.  A man would be punished for doubting God, yet this man was merely using the abilities God gave man, which was to doubt and question? 

                     

                    If I am getting too deep into this, someone please just tell me to shut up + move on to another subject and I will respect your wishes. :-)

                     

                    Seems sensible.  I'm a strong beleiver in religious freedom, but when a relegion tells you to ignore facts, exclude other people because they don't believe as you, don't think through things for yourself- that's where I see evil.  Nyogen Senzaki said- " Put no one else's head above your own."  And a bumper sticker I saw recently=  "The less you know, the more you believe."


                    Feeling the growl again

                        

                      But the reason I find it odd, is because I don't think of doing good works as rule following.  Certainly some can do for that reason, but others do because it is the good thing to do.  You can take Jesus out of the equation here unless you want to bind Jesus and Good thereby having no other definition of 'good' w/o Jesus.  But that would lead to non-believers either doing 'good' in ignorance of Jesus, or it would be impossible for them to do 'good' -- which seems a bit odd.  For example, a stranger who donates his kidney is doing a good -- whether he believes in Jesus or not.

                       

                      A shame those who do good for good reasons are still forbidden from your heaven because they didn't do it for a Jesus reason.

                       

                      After the Second Vatican Council (1964), the Catholic Church revealed that even non-Christian believers, who do good deeds, may gain entrance to Catholic heaven . . . it's just very very hard.  MTA: in 2005 even atheists got a nod.

                       

                      The condition applies that there are a lot of denominations of Christianity which believe different things.  So we may offer opinions based on our experience/denomination but there will be variability.

                       

                      As I said, according to my beliefs/denomination(s) (as I have belonged to a number over the years for various reasons), non-believers can do good, per my previous post.  IMHO to suggest otherwise would be unsupportable when confronted with real-life evidence.  I have athiest friends who are good and giving people.

                       

                      I'm not sure why you suggest it is "a shame" that good people who don't believe be denied access to heaven just because they don't believe...is it not unreasonable that those who cast aside God not be granted his grace?  If works are not sufficient, why is it unfortunate that those whose only asset is works not be granted the gift of grace?  If it is faith and not works that gains access to heaven, it should be no surprise that by works alone one does not get there.

                       

                      Regarding your references to Catholicism, I will admit I have significant issues with that particular denomination so I won't comment on their opinions.

                      "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                       


                      Feeling the growl again

                         (Again, remember, it seems a contradiction that God would kill toddlers, infants and unborn children in a flood... How can they be guilty of doing anything wrong?)

                         

                         or send a man to hell simply for not believing in him prior to their death,

                         

                        Per the "innocents" question, one must understand originial sin, and that there is a difference between God passing judgement on these people vs mankind deciding who should live and die.

                         

                        Per going to Hell "simply for not believing prior to death", that is not so "simple".  It is a fundamental determining factor.  What right does someone who casts God aside have to claim a place in Heaven?

                         

                        It's actually against my better judgement to even post in this thread.  Please recognize that it's my personal philosophy to leave judgement of people on these factors to God.  I don't pretend to be in a place to understand His thoughts and pass judgement on people.  I have plenty of friends I think highly of who are not close to my beliefs; those differences are something they have to address with God, not with me.  Smile

                         

                        So my comments are offered without judgement.

                        "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                         


                        Interval Junkie --Nobby

                          Just to be clear: "[It's] a shame" meaning "it's too bad" in the common parlance -- not the social form of guilt.

                           

                          I was merely contrasting your criteria for getting into heaven verses one based on deeds -- such as the Catholic heaven.

                           

                          I think the common belief (not to say the 'correct' understanding) is that heaven is the Christian reward for being a good person.  "Good person" here is very vague, of course and could be defined as one having faith in Jesus.  But f you think of the phrase "all dogs go to heaven" I think you might better understand my meaning.

                           

                          But yes, if you define a necessary criterion of "must have faith", then obviously it should surprise no one if agnostic saints go to hell (or whatever the non-heaven place is in grace-based heaven Christianities).

                           

                          Just sounds like a bad setup to me.

                           

                          I guess the nice thing about the grace-based versions is that even if you did something very bad, you could expect that turning your life around in the final hours might still gain you access to heaven (I'm not talking about gaming the system, but true conversion).  A deed oriented believer might think their goose is already cooked and there would be no way to work off the evil they have done in the remainder of their lives.

                           

                          But again, as long as your version of Christianity (or other belief or non-belief) encourages you to do good works, then all of us are better off.

                          2014 Goals:  sub-3 Marathon 

                          Current Status 06/19: Pelvic stress-fracture = 6-weeks of no running.


                          Feeling the growl again

                             

                            But yes, if you define a necessary criterion of "must have faith", then obviously it should surprise no one if agnostic saints go to hell (or whatever the non-heaven place is in grace-based heaven Christianities).

                             

                            Just sounds like a bad setup to me.

                             

                            I guess the nice thing about the grace-based versions is that even if you did something very bad, you could expect that turning your life around in the final hours might still gain you access to heaven (I'm not talking about gaming the system, but true conversion).  A deed oriented believer might think their goose is already cooked and there would be no way to work off the evil they have done in the remainder of their lives.

                             

                            But again, as long as your version of Christianity (or other belief or non-belief) encourages you to do good works, then all of us are better off.

                             

                            I guess from the perspective of good people who do not believe, it would be a bad setup.  But this comes down to believing that the important things is works or faith.

                             

                            However I am not arrogant enough to pretend to understand the fine print.  This is what the denomination I most closely align my personal beliefs with professes; I do not pretend that this believe definitively aligns with what God may decide.  This is why I do not extend my personal beliefs to definitive judgement on individuals.  That is not my place.

                             

                            Yes, this leaves hope for people who have really messed up in their lives.  There are multiple references in the Bible to the rejoicing around people who were lost but then find their way back.  And true belief leads to good works.

                            "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                             

                            mab411


                            Proboscis Colossus

                              I think the common belief (not to say the 'correct' understanding) is that heaven is the Christian reward for being a good person.

                               

                              That is the common belief, and as spaniel points out, it is unfortunately wrong, like many common ideas about what is and isn't in the Bible.

                              "God guides us on our journey, but careful with those feet." - David Lee Roth, of all people

                              Meat Wagon


                              Puker

                                So no one goes to heaven?

                                 

                                I haven't watched this one because I'm waiting for 'The Bible on H2.'

                                Feel sick and dirty, more dead than alive.