On Wisconsin! (Read 2073 times)

    2 things and then I have to go do some work so I can afford to pay my union represented teachers...

     

    1.) No that's not how it works in the rest of the real world.  When my employer faced similar budget crises in 2008 in unilaterally changed the employees share of benefits costs (and cut pay in other ways to control expenses) and the employees choice was take it or leave it, as in find another job.  It was explained to us intelligently and respectfully and all that and most people took it like adults.  Cities and towns currently have no such flexibility, nor do we have the time it would take to have the type of protracted negotiation on every little item because the bills are due when they are due.  The reason this works in the rest of the real world is that employers always have an incentive to attract and retain the best people, so as soon as they were able, my employer restored some of the benefits they had taken away.

     

    2.) Teacher's unions are disproportionately strong in relation to who they are negotiating with.  The MTA has a bigger lobbying budget than my town's entire fiscal budget for a year.  And they can do this all day with armies of professional lawyers while most of my town's officials are part time volunteers who have to also do their day jobs to be able to pay for the privilege of  negotiating with union lawyers in their spare time. 

     

    Okay, these are good points. I see this. Thanks.


    Feeling the growl again

      To criticize the bigness and the power of teacher's unions is to wish that we lived in a world in which there weren't a bunch of teachers that you had to pay.

       

      This is completely absurd.  Nobody has an issue with paying teachers.  As mikey said, they have issues with the imbalance of negotiating power, inflexibility, and protection of poor teachers with seniority at the expense of quality younger teachers (ie lack of performance incentive and talent retention).

      "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

       


      Prince of Fatness

        So, you don't have a view. Okay.

         

        MTA: The article was one-sided in that it did not mention the interests that were opposing the teacher's unions. I think I see your point now. It was that folks oppose the unions because of a one-sided treatment of the political process by the press. Thanks for that!

         

        I think that I will back away from this word twisting game.  This is going nowhere in a big hurry.  I am at fault for starting it, so apologies for that.

        Semi-retired.

          This is completely absurd.  Nobody has an issue with paying teachers.  As mikey said, they have issues with the imbalance of negotiating power, inflexibility, and protection of poor teachers with seniority at the expense of quality younger teachers (ie lack of performance incentive and talent retention).

           

          Okay, I put it poorly. My point was only that the bigness of the interest is not necessarily an argument against the interest. It ought to be reflective of the social power of the folks that interests protect.

           

          I am convinced by specific arguments that SHOW that the largeness of the interest is not reflective of the social power. But that relationship has to be shown, not merely asserted.

            I think that I will back away from this word twisting game.  This is going nowhere in a big hurry.  I am at fault for starting it, so apologies for that.

             

            Yes, I am being ironical and twisting your words. Thank you for posting your article. I apologize that I pushed you into a position that you didn't really hold.

              Okay, the last thing that I will say is that 

               

              1) Yes, I am not a crazy person; I can see that unions often have bad effects on teachers, on education, on state budgets, and on local communities.

               

              2) Unions should not get a free pass.

               

              3) As a mode of explanation for my animation on this thread: I do find it strange that so much attention is being given to teachers unions as somehow The Major Fiscal Problem with the economy today. Maybe I am wrong about this, but I just don't see it. Certainly it is a problem, and the unions should admit as much, but my sense is that the problem is caused by a long term explosion of health care costs and a shorter term collapse in tax revenue.

                Yes, I am being ironical and twisting your words. 

                 

                interesting. 

                  Everyone just totally bypassed Steve's post on (impressive) page 34, amid all the entertaining distraction. Check the news (or Yahoo or whatever): the Wisconsin Republicans just "rammed through" the collective bargaining provision. Public meeting notice law? Nah. Things are getting much much hotter again. Cars were honking the rhythm for "This is what democracy looks like" going by my house at 11pm. Rumors abound. I'm going to the capitol.

                  xor


                    >> Cars were honking the rhythm for "This is what democracy looks like"

                     

                    Man I must be out of touch.  I have no idea how the rhythm goes.

                     

                       as soon as they were able, my employer restored some of the benefits they had taken away.

                        

                       

                      With all the anti public employee sentimate out there do you think that this would ever happen to any public employee? I say no way because it appears that is exactly what happened in Wisconsin. In good economic times the state decided to defer a pay raise to its employees and start funding a pension plan, which through the years was underfunded, and now everyone is screaming bloody murder because of it.

                       

                       

                        negotiating with union lawyers in their spare time. 

                       

                      Really? When we negotiate with the county boards reps, there is no lawyer in the room. The union rep (a working stiff, not a lawyer) is present along with the union shop stewart and assistant, the county coordinator, human resourses diredtor and a county board member. We hash things out and the union rep takes the outcome back to the members for a vote where majority rules. No lawyers what so ever.

                       

                      The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

                       

                      2014 Goals:

                       

                      Stay healthy

                      Enjoy life

                       

                        This is completely absurd.  Nobody has an issue with paying teachers.  As mikey said, they have issues with the imbalance of negotiating power, inflexibility, and protection of poor teachers with seniority at the expense of quality younger teachers (ie lack of performance incentive and talent retention).

                         

                        Trust me when I say that those of us that are public employees would love to see this problem go away and I would love to get a performance incentive, but how to you think the public would take it if I got a little extra for doing my job? Oh waIt, they're already pissed that I can make enough to support my family, own two cars and pay into a pension plan.

                         

                        The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

                         

                        2014 Goals:

                         

                        Stay healthy

                        Enjoy life

                         

                          Meanwhile...across the pond...compensation of public workers....it is not just a Wisconsin or Ohio issue...

                           

                          Pensions anger from unions following Hutton review

                          http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12687489

                           

                           

                          2012 Goals: 1:35-ish Half Mary ->(result 1:38:40).  Bust the sub 20 5k barrier (19:54!!!!) and whoop the 1000 mile bunny (ok, bunny, you win).


                          Feeling the growl again

                            Trust me when I say that those of us that are public employees would love to see this problem go away and I would love to get a performance incentive, but how to you think the public would take it if I got a little extra for doing my job? Oh waIt, they're already pissed that I can make enough to support my family, own two cars and pay into a pension plan.

                             

                            Well I have heard this sentiment from some, mostly HS dropouts/lower class types who never learned the value of education to begin with and hence do not value teachers.

                             

                            However my reference to talent retention was not necessarily from a bonus pay perspective...more from the fact that unions protect those with most seniority so when cuts need to come, excellent young teachers get axes while bad senior teachers get to rest on their seniority without a concern in the world.  I saw this play out personally when I was in school.  If performance were valued over seniority in the system, this would not be such a problem.

                             

                            "The public" hates pretty much every group they are not included in or who they can blame for their problems.  My own profession falls victim to the same problem -- moreso than teachers -- so I can sympathize.

                            "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                             


                            Closed for repairs

                              I heard today while I was watching TV on the TM that last year the Wisconsin Teacher of the Year was fired last year because of union rules.  Apparently there is a last in first out rule and she was last in when a budget cut came.  If true, this seems counterproductive.  This could be erroneous though, because I may have misheard and it was Fox News. 

                               

                              Nothing like Fox News on a tempo run.

                               

                                I heard today while I was watching TV on the TM that last year the Wisconsin Teacher of the Year was fired last year because of union rules.  Apparently there is a last in first out rule and she was last in when a budget cut came.  If true, this seems counterproductive.  This could be erroneous though, because I may have misheard and it was Fox News. 

                                 

                                Nothing like Fox News on a tempo run.

                                 

                                Ha. A quick google search reveals this. (I can't believe I'm linking Weekly Standard.)

                                 

                                Getting named "outstanding first year teacher" is pretty different from being named "Wisconsin Teacher of the Year." But yes, this is a problem and folks on the left recognize it. Every institution has problems. Moving from this instance to an argument for stripping unions of bargaining rights would take some work.

                                 

                                Politics. YA!

                                 

                                MTA: Hopefully all of this attention will lead to changes within the unions!