2011 Goal of Sub-3:00 Marathon (Read 8006 times)

BCR, you're only hearing 1/2 the message.  You don't do enough workouts, even when you were peak big boy marathon training this summer. 

I don't think it was smart to try and build up mileage and kill your legs with hard workouts such as speed work.  For Indy I was working on building mileage in as the first goal.  2nd Goal was getting some hill workouts in and the 3rd was getting speed training in.   Plus I was also adding in running everyday. 

For Boston it will be, 1st Goal more speed workouts, 2nd Goal hill workouts and 3rd use the same mileage that I did for Indy. 

I'm hearing the message but I also hear about a lot of people getting injured.  I am trying to avoid that as I work on making myself a better runner. 

I'm hearing the message but I also hear about a lot of people getting injured.  I am trying to avoid that as I work on making myself a better runner. 

Recognizing here that you are a better runner than me, BCR.  Maybe you are right, that building the volume at the same time as increasing intensity would have been a bad idea.  I also built my volume (not as high as you at peak but I think we are close YTD) AND added workouts.  I think both were very important to my improvement. 

My point is looking forward, not back.  You've got an aggressive goal and you have a base.  I think even entertaining the question of what your easy pace should be is heading down the wrong path.  Figure out the 1-2 workouts you want to do and run them hard every week.   Put work in half your long runs.  Build your easy miles around that at whatever pace won't  will make you feel less like death walking around between workouts. 

My  $.02

 

WOW.  Leave out a few relevant details there to make yourself look good there, didn't you?  Like the part where I was on pace for 2:32-2:35 up until I pulled a hip flexor with 10 miles to go? 

 

You're right, the proof is in the pudding. Your marathon is incredibly soft given your performances over shorter distances.  You ran what, 15:49 in May/June and could only muster a 2:38 by fall?  McMillan would give around 2:33-4 which, even if optimistic, you had all summer to build towards.  Looks like backwards progress to me, especially given your volume.  You have a low-15 5K PR and have never mustered better than a 2:38.  I'm not sure you've "proven" anything other than you have a lot of natural talent (low-15 5K) and willingness to put in miles.  I know a guy with a 5K PR in the 15:20s, currently running 15:40s, that ran lower volume than you (never topped 80-85) but more faster running and just went 2:26. 

 

To claim you have optimized your training running 2:38, and have the basis to get so irrationally worked up about someone having a different take on things (who happened to take a college mid-34 10K to sub-31 practicing what they preach), well....

 

Not to mention my comment had absolutely nothing in the world to do with average training pace, but the assertion that "there is no training value to running faster than 8 minutes a mile more than once or twice a week".  I would also agree that average training pace is useless.  The only thing I disagreed with is the quoted statement above regarding the frequency of faster work, but you keep trying to make it something else.

 

Dude, you have some serious insecurity issues.

Just to salvage something from a frustrating encounter.

1) I am a better 5k runner than marathoner. I've also spent a really long time working on the 5k, like from age 12 to age 22. So far I've spent three years working on the marathon--I'm getting there. For what it's worth I thought I was in 2:32 shape, but of course I was happy to run 2:35 (PR!). I think it's easy to make assumptions about talent based on speed. I know I have some talent. But I also know how seriously I took my running really literally from 7th grade through my senior year in college. I can guarantee you that I put a lot more into my running than you did in my teen years, so perhaps the "talent" factor is not as clear as you think. There's 10 straight, uninterrupted years of work and experience behind that low 15s time, and that experience still shows up when I toe the line in the 5k. I hope someday I will be as good a marathoner as a 5ker.

2) I think that you do not have a clear picture of my training. My easy paces are on the slower side: 7:00-7:30. But I am also running some intensity 2 or 3 times a week. You can look at September for a view. I do not think I have optimized my training. Here's my reflections on the training leading up to Baystate.

3) Most folks here are looking towards a spring marathon. Which means this is winter base season (at least, that's how I see it.) I've written on what I think that base season should look like. My remarks on paces that you took issue with (and to my mind distorted a bit) were in the context of talking about putting in a winter base. Trent put my thoughts on the winter base here.

4) Spaniel, you are a smart cat, and you know a lot about running. You've been places in the marathon that I would like to go. Obviously something about the way we interact isn't right. I'm not sure the problems are all to do with me, though I know that I've got my issues. I just hate to be a part of something like this on a "sacred thread" like the sub-3hr thread. (Though it did bring Thunder out of his cave!) My apologies.

(Though it did bring Thunder out of his cave!) My apologies.

I don't see this as being a good thing   You should apologize for waking him up more then anything else you did or wrote.  Glad you and Spaniel are getting along now as I like both of you.  Put Thunder back in his cave, throw a boulder over it and I will be happy with you again. 

 

For speed I hope you mean tempo and longer fast (strength) workouts more than intervals.  If you can handle that volume with the bigger bang for the buck of the tempo/longer fast workouts, intervals are would be a block on top of that.

Uh Oh - I like intervals and I was planning on doing a lot of those on the old treadmill because I get bored running the same speed on those stupid things.

A 3 hour marathon is 6:53 pace.  I plan to run some long training (13-20 miles) runs at 7 minute pace.  I also plan to run some long training runs at 8 minute pace.  Not sure if either of those would be considered tempo.  My guess 7 would be considered race pace and 8 mins would be a tempo?

A sub-3 marathon. I'll never see that in my lifetime. Pretty soon you'll all be saying we will be able to get to Europe non-stop on one of those aeroplanes. Never happen....

 

Last time they did that to somebody, he turned out to rise from the dead and sit on the right hand of the Lord.

No, I think others were subsequently buried that way. 

No, I think others were subsequently buried that way. 

Good point!