2011 Goal of Sub-3:00 Marathon (Read 8001 times)

Schmize


    How did your 27+ mile training run go? That was pretty impressive at a 7:40 pace. Even the Half you just ran was very nice. Why did you keep the 6:30-40 pace so late in the race if you had lots left in the tank? And, dont fear the wall. Embrace it. The last 10k+/- of the marathon are going to suck. It just is. So, when it tries to knock you down, punch back a little. Progression runs are great for this. Or try a long warmup, about an hour, then knock back a tempo run. These runs give me tons of confidence.

     

    Fwiw, my magic eight ball says that you are around a 2:57-58 marathon.

     

    @Parklife - The 27 miler was very nice.  Great weather (45-65 deg, no wind), but legs were great all the way until about 24 and then it was not bad at all.  Never felt like I was pushing (in fact, I kept easing up b/c I knew how far I had to go to get to my son's game).   And, I am kicking myself for the 6:30-6:40.  I was chasing some CC running kid the whole first 6-7 miles and I started reeling him in.  I thought it was b/c I was going faster, and I was, but once I passed him, I must have relaxed b/c I zoned out and the next 3 miles were ho-hum.  I was pushing, but I could have pushed harder if I had someone else to chase.  Once it opened up, I started to make up ground, and I suspect that my lack of experience and this being a smaller race, I just lost focus over those miles.  It still would have been tough, but I learned some things.  I also think I was carrying in some fatigue from the 27 miler (being 6 days before the race and probably a little long for my volume). 

     

    BTW, I like your Magic 8 ball, and I have the yassos on wednesday, and then a progression long run on Sunday.  Looking forward to that, as much as tapering.  Hoping they are confidence builders.   My legs feel great today.

    Schmize


       

      So I learned 2 things:  1 The human body can handle huge amounts of pain if the mind is willing to force it to and 2)  Even if you are fried, you do not have to die, you can still manage a reasonable race at a slightly slower pace if you can do #1

       

      I think the other thing that helps me is the way I do most speed work ... as part of long runs 18-22 miles.  I calculate how many miles I will need for speed ... say 8, then run 10-14 mile warm up.

       

      Where my mind is weak to push my body is usually < mile 20 of a marathon.  I have proven multiple times to myself if I can get to mile #20 on pace - I can handle the pain to push it home.  Before mile # 20 I seem to always have the self conversation:  "Do you really want this much pain? ... You could just mail it in and fake it home"  Sometimes the answer is yes, sometimes no.

       

      Of course we all think we are tough and can handle more pain then other people - But reality it is not true.  I know when I work hard and I know when I cruise it in and I know when I have left nothing on the course.  I can not push that hard every time - There is a certain mental committment that must be backing your belief in your mental toughness.  Sometimes the committment comes from a time goal, beating a person goal or committment to a team.....

       

       

      DB - This is great stuff and I think you are right on here.  How deep into the pain cave can I (we) go?  I remember reading something after the IronWar (Mark Allen vs. Dave Scott in IM World Championship) where Dave Scott afterwards said this:

       

      "Think of your true physical limits as an athlete as a wall that lies at the end of a bed of hot coals. Those hot coals represent the purely psychological feeling of suffering that you experience in walking barefoot over them toward the wall of your physical limits in a race such as Ironman. There is not an athlete on earth who has a suffering tolerance so great that he can walk all the way to the wall. Everyone jumps off the coals at some point. But some athletes can stand the pain longer than others, and every athlete can find ways to stand the pain longer than ever before, and thereby reach closer to that wall and achieve a breakthrough performance"

        "Think of your true physical limits as an athlete as a wall that lies at the end of a bed of hot coals. Those hot coals represent the purely psychological feeling of suffering that you experience in walking barefoot over them toward the wall of your physical limits in a race such as Ironman. There is not an athlete on earth who has a suffering tolerance so great that he can walk all the way to the wall. Everyone jumps off the coals at some point. But some athletes can stand the pain longer than others, and every athlete can find ways to stand the pain longer than ever before, and thereby reach closer to that wall and achieve a breakthrough performance"

         

        Pardon, but isn't this the kind of thinking that leaves people motherless and husbandless? What if the pain doesn't veer off the road in time? I think the analogy to hot coals is stupid because you can't die from walking on hot coals.  You die from pressing them against your chest. 

        "If you have the fire, run..." -John Climacus

        DoppleBock


          In a marathon I do not feel it's any more likely that I will die from max effort than running every day.  I have had many races, marathon or less that I get really light headed and get close to passing out.  I am not scared of passing out - I suppose I could hit my head and die, but not likely.

           

          Now in an ultra - When you start having the probablility of severe hyper or hypo all sorts of things (Electrolytes, hydration) + endocrin system totally freaked out - I am a little more leary of what I am willing to do. 

           

          Pardon, but isn't this the kind of thinking that leaves people motherless and husbandless? What if the pain doesn't veer off the road in time? I think the analogy to hot coals is stupid because you can't die from walking on hot coals.  You die from pressing them against your chest. 

          http://a-big-horse.blogspot.com/ 

          2013 Goals ~ Mar < 3:00, 5M < 29, 10k < 35  

           

            mentallity >> physicallity

              In a marathon I do not feel it's any more likely that I will die from max effort than running every day.  I have had many races, marathon or less that I get really light headed and get close to passing out.  I am not scared of passing out - I suppose I could hit my head and die, but not likely.

               

              Now in an ultra - When you start having the probablility of severe hyper or hypo all sorts of things (Electrolytes, hydration) + endocrin system totally freaked out - I am a little more leary of what I am willing to do. 

               

              It's interesting, I've heard of this almost passing out feeling but never got there myself. When I push it beyond where I have nothing left, it is not dizziness or passing out that stops me, it is a muscle (or multiple) locking up and making it impossible to fire. It stops me dead in my tracks as the muscle will not move at all. Usually takes 1-5 minutes for it to loosen up enough to fire again. Yesterday, it happened 10 steps after I crossed the finish. I don't think it is electolytes as I was pretty damn careful about taking fluids and salt tabs, not overdoing the fluids but who knows...

               

              I would guess it is lactic acid, but why can people like DB push past it without this problem?


              Are we there yet?

                Chaka - Yes, that is probably reality (1/2 mary + 12), but I keep thinking of all the reasons why it could have been faster.

                Bhearn - Thanks for that example, as well.  My half full side keeps thinking I can pull it off.

                 

                DB - What a great question!  As you can see by the examples above, I can go either way with this.  I need to train my mind to believe.  I have the fear of blowing up (hell, I did that in the half, considering my last 1.1 miles were 6:16, I really had too much gas). And I have back up goals, that I keep falling back on (3:03 is my running pal's PR, and 3:05 is still a good time).  How do you recommend training the mind?   I have some Yasso 800s that I am doing on Wednesday, and I know its just another "test" and many don't buy into it, but my hope is to do them very well, and it gets my mind to say "wtf" and just go out and do it on Nov. 6th.  Thoughts?  How have you done it or how do you do it?

                 

                Have you tried running without a Garmin? This is when my 'breakthrough' occured. Once I finally ran on feel, then self-doubt was out the window because I had no clue as to how fast or slow I was running. Huge PRs once I cut the cord of the Garmin and began eliminating all the information that had me flustered, like Whoa! that was a fast mile, or geez I think i went out too fast. It sort of predetermined my later feeling of OMG am I tired.. 

                  Have you tried running without a Garmin? This is when my 'breakthrough' occured. Once I finally ran on feel, then self-doubt was out the window because I had no clue as to how fast or slow I was running. Huge PRs once I cut the cord of the Garmin and began eliminating all the information that had me flustered, like Whoa! that was a fast mile, or geez I think i went out too fast. It sort of predetermined my later feeling of OMG am I tired.. 

                   

                  I still wear my garmin during races, but i never react to it during the race.  Okay, I'm cheating a bit here. You see, I really need to wear reading glasses to see the display, but I don't wear them when I race. So, that display is mostly a blur until I can upload the data afterwards. So, I race entirely by feel.  The garmin is there to look at the data afterwards -- to see where I slowed and/or how my heart rate fluctuated. 

                    I still wear my garmin during races, but i never react to it during the race.  Okay, I'm cheating a bit here. You see, I really need to wear reading glasses to see the display, but I don't wear them when I race. So, that display is mostly a blur until I can upload the data afterwards. So, I race entirely by feel.  The garmin is there to look at the data afterwards -- to see where I slowed and/or how my heart rate fluctuated. 

                    +1.  The last couple races, I've looked at my pace over the first ~600m, very much to reassure myself that I held back as planned rather than rabbiting at the gun.  I've been working on going by feel, but that first 400-600m seems to be where I'm the most "numb" to pace-feel.  After that, though, I may as well have turned the display off -- never check it.

                     

                    MTA: forgot which thread I was posting in. Blush  For the marathon, I doubt I'd use any Garmin info except for HR.  Garmin-splits just seem too far off reality-splits to rely on the former.

                    “Everything you need is already inside.” -- Bill Bowerman

                    Schmize


                      Have you tried running without a Garmin? This is when my 'breakthrough' occured. Once I finally ran on feel, then self-doubt was out the window because I had no clue as to how fast or slow I was running. Huge PRs once I cut the cord of the Garmin and began eliminating all the information that had me flustered, like Whoa! that was a fast mile, or geez I think i went out too fast. It sort of predetermined my later feeling of OMG am I tired.. 

                       

                      I have not, but probably should.  That 1/2 marathon would have been a good one to give it a go.  I did do it once for a 10K and shocked myself, so not sure why I haven't tried it again.  Its kind of like a crutch that I feel I need, when I am not sure I do.  I think the main benefit for me is the first 1/2 mile or so b/c I know it NEVER feels like I am going as fast as I am going.  But after that, i do think I rely on it too much (especially, if the HR gets too high or the pace is off - both ways).  

                       

                      So, I know its off topic from the thread, but those that go "naked", I have a few questions:  1) did you do it cold turkey?  2) do you just do it for races 3) do you wear it anyway, but change the display and just use the data for afterwards?  4) If you do wear it, where do you see the biggest breakthroughs (i.e. does your HR run much higher, but b/c you aren't wearing it, you don't realize the perceived exertion, or do you run better at the end, the beginning, or just being focused on the race and other people and not on the watch benefits you?

                      DoppleBock


                        Interesting - I have never had a muscle "Lock up" they get really heavy like 2 half barrels of beer - lead legs.

                         

                        The feeling of when HR is maxed ... all concentration is to get shoulders back and good form ... all conentration is to get as much o2 as possible - very hard to drink anything - I do not even take the breath to spit any more ... every few seconds your body has an overwhelming urge to stop or back off enough to get more o2 ... every few seconds you have to kick that urge in the nuts.  To experience this mastery of will is like a drug ... its the reason I love doing marathons ... even in poor shape.  Max effort is like the ultimate high.  Near max effort is pretty good.  Less than this is like drinking MGD 64 or Bud Select 55 - A waste of effort.

                         

                        I cannot wait until Monkey !

                        http://a-big-horse.blogspot.com/ 

                        2013 Goals ~ Mar < 3:00, 5M < 29, 10k < 35  

                         


                        I'm back!

                          I'm still totally dependent on my Garmin. I managed two sub-3s at Boston by meticulous pacing. That's not a course you want to screw around on -- if you don't pace it just right, you blow up or leave a lot on the course.

                           

                          But I did run my 10K PR sans-Garmin, by accident. It locked up just before the race. Stressful as hell for me, but I can't complain about the result. I keep intending to try more short races without the Garmin, but I really hate short races, and only run them when I have to, as marathon tune-ups. Which adds to the reluctance to go without the Garmin: I know what MP I am trying to get in shape for, therefore I know what times I have to hit in the half, 10K, etc. 

                           

                          The big downside of the Garmin, for me, is the head games I put myself through due to inaccurate mile markers on most courses. Is the marker off? Or is my Garmin?


                          I look my best blurry!

                            Have you tried running without a Garmin? This is when my 'breakthrough' occured. Once I finally ran on feel, then self-doubt was out the window because I had no clue as to how fast or slow I was running. Huge PRs once I cut the cord of the Garmin and began eliminating all the information that had me flustered, like Whoa! that was a fast mile, or geez I think i went out too fast. It sort of predetermined my later feeling of OMG am I tired.. 

                             

                            Very interesting. I might be sabotaging myself with too much external input.

                              Just a quick update on my training.  I just finished my last 20+ miler before my marathon in three weeks.  I've been dogged throughout my training with a nagging Achilles issue, and it flared up pretty good the last couple of weeks.  It's forced me to adjust my weekly mileage and add rest days throughout.  Fortunately it's not as bad as it was a year ago, or I wouldn't be able to run at all now.

                               

                              My tune-up races haven't gone that well, although I have had two solid half marathons in marathon pace that felt like I could have kept on going.  Now I just need to relax and make sure I don't get too excited at the marathon starting line.  My training says I can go at MP as long as I want, but forget about picking up the pace or surging.  In the past I've approached the marathon from the speed side of training, and this will be my first attempt from the endurance side.

                                 

                                So, I know its off topic from the thread, but those that go "naked", I have a few questions:  1) did you do it cold turkey?

                                 

                                I went cold turkey in September when my Garmin broke*, and I was pretty, shamefully, dependent on it. Since then I've raced two HM's just using a sportswatch with a lap counter that I hit at a mile mark. I like racing without the Garmin and haven't had any sorts of withdrawal issues, but wouldn't mind having it around for training tempo runs.

                                Do I miss it? A little. Do I miss it $200 worth for another? No.

                                 

                                *it broke around mile 8 of another HM. I did have a moment of worry when I realized that I wouldn't know my pacing...but then I realized that since racing just involves trying to pass the guy in front of you**, I resorted to that old-school technique.

                                 

                                **I'm 45. there's always somebody in front of me.

                                 I like running alone.