2011 Goal of Sub-3:00 Marathon (Read 8001 times)


Alive & Running

    Hmm, I think I'll chime in on this and take a bit of a different view.  Pace in a training run, to me, means nothing.  I've never cared for going out on a run and saying "Okay, I'm going to run X miles at a X:XX pace".  To me training is supposed to be about pushing ones self to improvement (within reason of course).  I've never followed a plan and have always just run by feel.  Now, I do have a general idea on how many miles I'd like to run before I begin a LR or even a MLR, but that's about it.  If it feels like the pace I'm running is too tough and daunting for that day I'll dial it back.  If it feels like I'm putting up a buttercup effort I'll increase the intensity. 

     

    Now I'll qualify that by saying that I don't go out and run hard or near race pace every training run, but probably more than most people.  It has worked for me, but may not work for others.  But I do think the mentality of pushing yourself in training and not being afraid to have a training run hurt a little more than you'd like it to can be a benefit come race day.

     

    Also, @ phone home, have you tried running your LRs with no carbs?  This, I think, is known as "depletion training".  It is something I've done and noticed a huge change in my ability to deal with "The Wall" during a race.  I don't slow down near as much as I used to and it doesn't hit me until much, much later in the marathon. This may be something to try.

     

    Oh, and I totally agree w/ Spaniel's advice on 3 hr runs.  That is the mental approach that has worked best for me. 

     


      Hmm, I think I'll chime in on this and take a bit of a different view.  Pace in a training run, to me, means nothing.  I've never cared for going out on a run and saying "Okay, I'm going to run X miles at a X:XX pace".

       

      Not to be too picky, but isn't this exactly the view that mikeymike was articulating?

       

      As marathon times get faster, more attention has to be paid to quality simply because the running rhythm becomes more intense and the effort becomes not simply one of enduring the distance but also maintaining a dynamic and powerful running stride over the distance.

       

      I'd say sub 7 pace for men, the 3 hour mark, is a sort of point where maintaining intensity becomes a factor in performance--you can't run sub 3 without the ability to hold an open and powerful stride. However, it is far from being the key factor in producing a sub 3 marathon (If we were talking running sub 2:20, this would really be THE key factor and the volume would play an instrumental role in giving you the capacity to practice holding an intense pace for 26.2 miles).

       

      THE key factor for a runner who wants to break three hours is just consistent weekly and monthly mileage. It's fun when you feel good, but really there is no training reason to run faster than 8 minute pace more than once or twice a week.


      Alive & Running

         

        Not to be too picky, but isn't this exactly the view that mikeymike was articulating?

         

        As marathon times get faster, more attention has to be paid to quality simply because the running rhythm becomes more intense and the effort becomes not simply one of enduring the distance but also maintaining a dynamic and powerful running stride over the distance.

         

        I'd say sub 7 pace for men, the 3 hour mark, is a sort of point where maintaining intensity becomes a factor in performance--you can't run sub 3 without the ability to hold an open and powerful stride. However, it is far from being the key factor in producing a sub 3 marathon (If we were talking running sub 2:20, this would really be THE key factor and the volume would play an instrumental role in giving you the capacity to practice holding an intense pace for 26.2 miles).

         

        THE key factor for a runner who wants to break three hours is just consistent weekly and monthly mileage. It's fun when you feel good, but really there is no training reason to run faster than 8 minute pace more than once or twice a week.

         

        No, I know mikeymike wasn't saying that.  I saw a few responses that focused on LR paces and just thought I'd throw in a few words from the opposite vantage point where paying attention to LR pace isn't as important.  Totally agree that the weekly and monthly mileage (hell, just aggregate increase in mileage) is the way to go in building to sub-3:00 fitness.  That's what worked for me, but I admit I ran many, many runs much faster than conventional wisdom would dictate.

         



        Feeling the growl again

           

           

          THE key factor for a runner who wants to break three hours is just consistent weekly and monthly mileage. It's fun when you feel good, but really there is no training reason to run faster than 8 minute pace more than once or twice a week.

           

          That really depends on where you are starting from and your talent level.  I know people that had to do considerably more than that to push under 3 because that was approaching the limit of their potential.  Volume is good and all, but slower volume with limited faster work is not the ticket for many people.  I totally agree that volume and consistency are paramount though.

          "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

           

          DoppleBock


            IMHO The more mileage you run the slower your average pace should be - Very true as you explore new mileage regions.

             

            If I am training for a marathon, I run 3 types of long runs

             

            *  LSD - Not very often - Maybe 25% of time

            *  Runs where the pace is faster most the run - seldom (10%)

            *  Runs where I run easy for 50-80% of the run and finish with a speed workout of some type - Speed could be

                1) Marathon pace miles

                2) LAT paced - Either 20-25 minutes or up to 5x2 miles

                3) CV paced - 5x5 minutes @ 5k-30 minute race pace with equal recoveries

             

            I seldom will do speed work unless it is part of a run 18+ miles long

             

            Seems weird and I probably should experiment with doing speed in much shorted runs - Next time I gear up - starting in Fall 2010.

                

            http://a-big-horse.blogspot.com/ 

            2013 Goals ~ Mar < 3:00, 5M < 29, 10k < 35  

             

              Good point, Don S. And good on you for training the way you enjoy training instead of getting caught up in trying to train just right. A wise man once told me that it's better to do 95% of the running you enjoy than 35% of the "proper" training that doesn't suit your temperament. After all, we're all hobbyjoggers here.

                 

                That really depends on where you are starting from and your talent level.  I know people that had to do considerably more than that to push under 3 because that was approaching the limit of their potential.  Volume is good and all, but slower volume with limited faster work is not the ticket for many people.  I totally agree that volume and consistency are paramount though.

                 

                Where did I advocate "slower volume with limited faster work" as the ticket to marathon success?

                 

                MTA: I will stick by my guns though and say that a) most people never come anywhere close to the limit of their potential and b) the reason they don't has A LOT more to do with the mileage they run (understandable, we are hobbyjoggers) and almost nothing to do with the amount of intensity that they do.

                  Yeah, I didn't say anything about long run pace, but if I had I would have said that that is the last place to slow down.  In marathon training, there are about 2 or 3 runs per week where a runner should even care about pace and the long run is one of them--my LR usually winds up being my fastest or 2nd fastest run of the week, overall.  (Or it least it used to before I quit marathon.)  It just seemed to me phone home was overly concerned about his every day pace.  His later comments indicate he gets that and fully expects his everyday pace to slow down once he ramps his mileage and starts doing bigger workouts, so no worries.  Like I said, I hesitated to even bring it up because whole tendency on this board to immediately prescribe slowing down for everything drives me nuts. The whole point is to go fast...it's just that to really go fast a few times a week you need to go truly easy the other days.

                   

                  The 2 or 3 quality sessions per week are the  time to care about pace, not the every day easy runs where your priorities are recovery and long term aerobic development.  The downside of running many runs per week at faster than you should is that you never fully recover enough to put in true quality hard workouts, everything becomes sort of moderate and improvement stalls out.

                  I think we're all pretty much saying the same thing at this point.

                  There go like 4 of my minutes, Jeff...

                  Runners run.


                  Alive & Running

                    I think I may have mis-read some of the earlier comments.  Probably due to the sheer volume of other posts across various discussion boards where the knee-jerk reaction is "slow down" on everything, so sorry if I misrepresented anyone.  In going back and reading more carefully I'm pleasantly surprised that many here don't shy away from speedier LRs. 

                     

                    All that said, I know some of my buddies who could never survive the miles and paces I run in training even, w/ similar race times.  Everyone is different and some just recover more quickly than others.  The beauty of marathon training is identifying what works best for you as an individual and training in a manner that allows you the best possible chance for optimum performance on race day.

                     



                    Feeling the growl again

                       

                      Where did I advocate "slower volume with limited faster work" as the ticket to marathon success?

                       

                      That was how I interpreted this:

                       

                      "but really there is no training reason to run faster than 8 minute pace more than once or twice a week."

                       

                      There are plenty of training reasons to go faster than a minute per mile slower than marathon pace more than once (really?) or twice a week, and not all of them involve full workouts requiring significant recovery time.

                       

                      Though I rarely share details as I would not want someone to try to replicate it without full context, the prep for what I feel was my best-ever run marathon involved some sort of MP or faster work almost every single day.  Only a couple of these workouts required true recovery the next day as the volume of fast work on many days was relatively low, but there was certainly training purpose behind it and it delivered results.

                       

                      For example you mentioned the need to be able to keep a full and open stride.  Work on this can be accomplished with fast, shorter work that helps with stride length, neuromuscular coordination and flexibility but does not induce a ton of fatigue.

                      "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                       


                      Feeling the growl again

                         

                         

                        MTA: I will stick by my guns though and say that a) most people never come anywhere close to the limit of their potential and b) the reason they don't has A LOT more to do with the mileage they run (understandable, we are hobbyjoggers) and almost nothing to do with the amount of intensity that they do.

                         

                        I would agree with this completely.  But this is a separate issue from stating that there is no training reason to go faster than a minute slower than your marathon pace 1-2 times per week.

                        "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                         


                        Alive & Running

                           

                          That was how I interpreted this:

                           

                          "but really there is no training reason to run faster than 8 minute pace more than once or twice a week."

                           

                          There are plenty of training reasons to go faster than a minute per mile slower than marathon pace more than once (really?) or twice a week, and not all of them involve full workouts requiring significant recovery time.

                           

                          Though I rarely share details as I would not want someone to try to replicate it without full context, the prep for what I feel was my best-ever run marathon involved some sort of MP or faster work almost every single day.  Only a couple of these workouts required true recovery the next day as the volume of fast work on many days was relatively low, but there was certainly training purpose behind it and it delivered results.

                           

                          For example you mentioned the need to be able to keep a full and open stride.  Work on this can be accomplished with fast, shorter work that helps with stride length, neuromuscular coordination and flexibility but does not induce a ton of fatigue.

                           

                          FWIW I wholeheartedly agree with this approach.  I did that for a lot of my training runs in 2010 and felt that it made me a much better runner later in the race. 

                           

                          In fact, my 20-mile race PR was set on a Saturday, I then went out and raced a 25K the very next day, also setting a 25K PR in that race. Now, my 25K pr pace is slower than my 20-miler, but the point behind that weekend was to run fast in both races to improve on the things that Spaniel talks about above.

                           


                             

                            That was how I interpreted this:

                             

                            "but really there is no training reason to run faster than 8 minute pace more than once or twice a week."

                             

                            Okay, but weren't we talking about the pace of easy runs? That was what I was talking about. I apparently did not make myself clear.

                              Though I rarely share details as I would not want someone to try to replicate it without full context, the prep for what I feel was my best-ever run marathon involved some sort of MP or faster work almost every single day.  Only a couple of these workouts required true recovery the next day as the volume of fast work on many days was relatively low, but there was certainly training purpose behind it and it delivered results.

                               

                              Now we are talking about what it takes to run under 2:30, not what it takes to run under 3 hours. See, you are changing the terms of the conversation in order to disagree with me, when actually in my initial post I said The Same Thing.

                               

                              Sometimes I don't get you.

                                 

                                I would agree with this completely.  But this is a separate issue from stating that there is no training reason to go faster than a minute slower than your marathon pace 1-2 times per week.

                                 

                                I agree with the statement Jeff made since I think he meant it  to apply to the 45 year old or thereabouts male trying to hit ~2:59  for the first time (phonehome) .  For a young man trying to run 2:20,  not operable.