Anyone else disappointed with Hansons Method? (Read 576 times)

I do believe that the Hansons have you running your easy runs a little faster and overall total mileage a little faster

Easy runs, no, in fact the staple run on Pfitz is "general aerobic", faster than easy/recovery. However, when you add in all the extra miles at MP on Hansons, overall average training pace is probably comparable or a little faster than Pfitz.

I disagree - I think a canned plan is over-rated, but having a plan (generally) is important.

I can also say too many miles is over-rated.  But most people do not hit too many miles.

Plans are overrated.  Lots of miles are underrated.

 

Not that i claim to know much about running but few people can have the kind of running pedigree that you have described above so relative to you, the long run might be overrated. However, for most average runners (am talking in the 3.30 to 4.30 bracket), running volume and long runs both tend to influence commensurate increases in race day performance. In fact Pfitz in his Advanced Marathoning book pretty much says that long runs are quite necessary to become a better marathoner - so as a school of thought, probably merits more consideration.

I did not say that long runs weren't necessary, only that they were over-rated.  The logic behind Hansons is that the average marathoner today....30-50ish mpw...simply does not have the base and strength to derive the extra benefits you get from 20ish mile runs vs 16ish mile runs.  Not only that, but they incur the need for more recovery and further sacrifice volume and workouts throughout the rest of the week.

They are leaving too much in the long run, and not executing a balanced training program.

In the 2:29 anecdote I shared above, the fact that I was unable to fully execute my longer long runs left me with extra energy I applied to additional fast workouts throughout the week.  Honestly there were 4-5 weeks in there where I probably executed a higher volume of MP-or-faster work per week than ever in my running career...mainly because I was focused on them and not 20-23 mile runs.

50mpw runner does 20 mile long run, takes 1 day off each week, that leaves 30 miles over 5 days...6 miles per day.  Let's say they are good and get one longer 10-miler mid-week, so now the other 4 days are down to an average of 5 miles.

I have not read the Hansons' book, but I used to run with/against (ie behind) them fairly regularly as I lived close to them so I'm pretty familiar with how they trained various people, including some non-elites in the community.  I am not against someone doing a few (1-2) longer long runs and focus on that for the week if they feel this will increase their confidence...if this disagrees with their recommendations in the book I don't know.  But as standard practice I would agree with them that the long run is over-emphasized in many plans.

 

How much slower? The guidelines Pfitz gives for GA runs is really vague, like 15-25% slower than marathon pace. It does not feel like he expects people to worry too much about it. For me that  15-25% guidance would be somewhere in the 7:35 to 8:40 range (depending on what kind of marathon shape I'm in) ... in other words right about what I consider my easy range. Actually the slow end of that range is definitely a recovery run.

 

And Pfitz' guidance on recovery pace is even more vague (roughly 2 minutes slower than 10-mile to HM pace, or around 8 pace for me?) so if I were to over think this too much, there would be a pretty large overlap between "GA Run" pace and "Recovery Run" pace.

 

What does Hansons say?

Easy Running Guidelines

An easy run is usually defined as one that lasts anywhere between 20 minutes and 2.5 hours at an intensity of 55–75 percent of VO2max. Since most of us don’t have the means to get VO2max tested, the next best thing is to look at pace per mile. The Hansons Marathon Method calls for easy runs to be paced 1–2 minutes slower than goal marathon pace. For example, if your goal marathon pace is 8:00 minutes per mile, your easy pace should be 9:00–10:00 minutes per mile. While easy running is a necessary part of marathon training, and controlling your pace is key to its effectiveness, be sure not to run too easy. If your pace is excessively slow, you are simply breaking down tendon and bone without any aerobic benefits.

 

I did not say that long runs weren't necessary, only that they were over-rated.  The logic behind Hansons is that the average marathoner today....30-50ish mpw...simply does not have the base and strength to derive the extra benefits you get from 20ish mile runs vs 16ish mile runs.  Not only that, but they incur the need for more recovery and further sacrifice volume and workouts throughout the rest of the week.

 

They are leaving too much in the long run, and not executing a balanced training program.

I am not entirely certain that the 30-50ish mpw runner will not gain from a 20ish mile run - atleast not if the lead up to this long run is systematic and logical. The 18/55 Pfitz plan has you build upto the longest long run of 20 miles in the 55 mile week. In his plan, you run the distance only twice and every other "long run" is between 15 miles and 19 miles.I just did a rough estimation of the average mpw in his 18/55 plan - its about 45 mpw. But i generally agree with the essence of what you have described above - that a good aerobic base helps you get more out of the long run than not.

I am currently in Week 3 of this 18/55 plan and am trying to find out where i can end up at if i do manage to go through the entire plan successfully. So hopefully that is a relevant data point from an average marathoner (PR: 3:56). I am quite interested to see responses to Bhearn's question - on how folks who have used both the Pfitz and Hanson plan compare the two.

If you're into that sort of thing. I think people tend to over analyze easy pace whether it's Hansons calling it easy or Pfitz calling it GA. Its funny that both Pfitz and Hansons use really rough numbers like 1-2 minutes or 15-25% and people want to drill down on what that means.

It means keep your easy days easy. This ain't rocket science.

This has been discussed before but it's interesting that McMillan's easy pace is so much faster than it used to be.

 

I think easy pace finds itself, and naturally is faster the fitter you are.  There's not much sense worrying about it.  Worry about the pace of the other runs.

This^^

1-2 minutes slower then marathon pace to a 9:00 mpm marathoner is a lot tougher then 1-2 min slower for a 7:00 mpm marathoner. People get too hung up on the exact numbers.