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HM Pace vs. Marathon Pace (Read 1041 times)

    . If a 30-35 mpw runner runs a 20-minute 5k, and then trains for a marathon at 40-50 mpw, they will fall short of what the calculator predicts. This is due to the fact that they were much better trained for the 5k than they were for the marathon, an equivilent amount of training for the marathon for them would be in the 80 mpw range.
    Thanks for raining on my parade Big grin, I was hoping that 50-55 MPW would get me through a marathon under 4 hours. I am not in shape for a 20 min 5K, but still 80 MPW Shocked
    mgerwn


    Hold the Mayo

      Interesting, though the real issue with these projections is people not being fully trained for the longer distance.
      From the article, further down...
      "The fact that I focused on the 3:40 – 4:20 marathoner might cause some to suggest that the runners in this study were probably not adequately prepared to run the full marathon. However, I used the most relevant set of data I could find: real runners, running real races with actual results." There were 15% of the runners in my research who had marathon times equal to, or better than the projections from calculators. You might be one of those 15% but then again, you might be in the bottom 15% and should add ninety seconds to your pace. I would suggest that your training mileage would be the single largest determinant in where you fit on the scale.
      So, Jeff, you're right on track.
      jEfFgObLuE


      I've got a fever...

        The side effect of this is that the calculators offer an answer to how you would do if you trained for the marathon equivalently compared to how you trained for the test race. The problem is: the marathon is more training dependent than any other race, and the volume of training required is higher. If a 30-35 mpw runner runs a 20-minute 5k, and then trains for a marathon at 40-50 mpw, they will fall short of what the calculator predicts. This is due to the fact that they were much better trained for the 5k than they were for the marathon, an equivalent amount of training for the marathon for them would be in the 80 mpw range. The cold hard truth is that the vast majority of casual runners do not train adequately for "racing" (as opposed to "running") the marathon, and as such the calculators do not work for them.
        Well said. Much easier to prepare for and race to your potential in a short race than in a long one, at least from the standpoint of developing aerobic capacity.

        On your deathbed, you won't wish that you'd spent more time at the office.  But you will wish that you'd spent more time running.  Because if you had, you wouldn't be on your deathbed.

        mikeymike


          Lets not kid ourselves, most people are not even close to adequately prepared to race at 5k either, its just that performance at that distance is determied less by training than the marathon is.

          Runners run

          jEfFgObLuE


          I've got a fever...

            Lets not kid ourselves, most people are not even close to adequately prepared to race at 5k either, its just that performance at that distance is determined less by training than the marathon is.
            +2

            On your deathbed, you won't wish that you'd spent more time at the office.  But you will wish that you'd spent more time running.  Because if you had, you wouldn't be on your deathbed.

              Lets not kid ourselves, most people are not even close to adequately prepared to race at 5k either, its just that performance at that distance is determied less by training than the marathon is.
              Yes I was thinking about this after I posted. As distance increases, training plays a larger role in comparison to talent. Every once in a while you will hear a story about a kid who never ran before, tried out for the high school track team, and ran a 800m or 1600 for the tryout, and broke the school record. Pure talent can go a long way in middle distance, a decent way in long distance (talking in track terms, 5k-10k), but won't get you very far in the half marathon, and will get you almost nowhere in the marathon without proper training.
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                Thanks for raining on my parade Big grin, I was hoping that 50-55 MPW would get me through a marathon under 4 hours. I am not in shape for a 20 min 5K, but still 80 MPW Shocked
                I have no doubt that a reasonably healthy person could run under 4 hours on 50 mpw (it happens all the time), or even 3 hours. It's just that, if you truly prepared yourself to race, for a peak performance, you would do better. My main point is, that at the level of mileage that most casual runners run, their "short distance" (I use quotes because no road race is truly short distance) times will indicate a higher level of fitness than their long distance times, due to the fact that their training does not truly prepare them for long distance racing.
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                  Kevin, I completely agree with you, just the idea of 80 MPW is beyond comprehension right now. I think I was trying to convey my non seriousness through the use of the smilies. I know a couple of people that smoke me on our 4 mile run, but I beat them in a Half marathon. They run 20 MPW, me about 30. So the calculators have to somehow incorporate weekly and lifetime mileages in addition to age.
                  Chrisnerb


                    I agree. It would be nicer to have more information in the projections. Fairly new back to running after 10 years off. I quickly worked down to consistent low 18:00's 5K's. However, I can certainly attest that I'm way off calculations for both the 1/2 (1:31) and full marathons (3:14). For me, I was able to reach 18:39 off merely 25-28 MPW. I probably would have struggled to come even close to any of my projections above 10M with that running routine. What's the 'ideal' mileage to reach potential in all distances? I'd love to learn. Currently, I'm pushing to get up to near 70MPW prior to my spring marathon, we'll see if I get there and what that does towards reaching my 'projected time.' Best,

                    2009 Goals: PR's in 5k, 10k, HM, marathon

                      What's the 'ideal' mileage to reach potential in all distances? I'd love to learn. Currently, I'm pushing to get up to near 70MPW prior to my spring marathon, we'll see if I get there and what that does towards reaching my 'projected time.'
                      I would guess that such does not exist outside of the realm of theory, and if it does, it is highly personal to the individual runner.
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                      AmoresPerros


                      Options,Account, Forums

                        I believe that the calculators and VDOT tables were created by sampling enough elite runners and elite masters until a linear pattern appeared, and then projecting downwards onto non-elites....
                        Maybe linear on logarithmic scale Smile

                        It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.


                        A Saucy Wench

                          What's the 'ideal' mileage to reach potential in all distances? I'd love to learn. Currently, I'm pushing to get up to near 70MPW prior to my spring marathon, we'll see if I get there and what that does towards reaching my 'projected time.' Best,
                          I dont think that exists. Because I dont believe you can reach potential in all distances simultaneously. You dont see milers going out and running the marathon and winning both. The type of training is specific. That said I do think "when you hit the projected curve" and "reaching potential" are VERY different questions. I started matching up well with McMillan when I did 2 things. Ran about 40 mpw consistantly for 6 months and raced more frequently. This doesnt mean I hit my potential. I now inch up the curve. I run a HM slightly faster than predicted from my last 10k so I go for the 10K predicted by my half and go a little faster (sometimes) so I pick a new target for my next marathon, etc. etc. ad nauseum. That being said - I do match up to the curve, but I have NEVER done 5K-10K specific training. They were always incidental to HM or Marathon training.

                          I have become Death, the destroyer of electronic gadgets

                           

                          "When I got too tired to run anymore I just pretended I wasnt tired and kept running anyway" - dd, age 7

                            Maybe linear on logarithmic scale Smile
                            I'm a business major.
                            For message board success, follow these three easy steps in the correct order: 1) Read, 2) Comprehend, 3) Post.
                              I looked at this a while back and tried to see how much weekly mileage affected the relationship between HM and M times. I didn't have a huge sampling (60 runners) but from converting times to VDOT performances I found that on average people performed about 2 VDOTs worse in the full than the half. for high mileage (100 mpw) it was closer to 1 VDOT, for low mileage (25 mpw) it was more like 3. Only about 25% met/beat their equivalent time. it was by no means rigorous science, but here you go....... http://alansmiles.blogspot.com/2007/05/lies-damn-lies-and-statistics.html
                              - the grisly details http://alansmiles.blogspot.com
                                Apart from the conclusion I am slightly dismayed that Jim2 refers to "middle or back of the packers" to describe those running a half in 1:40 or slower: reality sucks! Simon.

                                PBs since age 60:  5k- 24:36, 10k - 47:17. Half Marathon- 1:42:41.

                                                                    10 miles (unofficial) 1:16:44.

                                 

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