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The Pose (Read 1858 times)

Mr R


    Some of Pose makes a lot of sense (minimal shoes, landing on the forefoot, not pushing off), but some of it is problematic. The notion of falling forward is ridiculous, and the focus on "pulling with your hamstrings" is downright dangerous. Propulsion should come from driving your knee forward. The equal and opposite reaction is what should produce the push off from the other foot. Actively pushing with the calves and quads is a recipe for injury. Those muscle groups are to prevent your leg from collapsing when it strikes the ground, not to push yourself off.

    What was the secret, they wanted to know; in a thousand different ways they wanted to know The Secret. And not one of them was prepared, truly prepared to believe that it had not so much to do with chemicals and zippy mental tricks as with that most unprofound and sometimes heart-rending process of removing, molecule by molecule, the very tough rubber that comprised the bottoms of his training shoes. The Trial of Miles, Miles of Trials. How could they be expected to understand that? -John Parker

      I never analyzed my form before, I just ran. When I started reading about pose I started paying closer attention to how I ran. I realized that when my legs were fresh I was running pose but as I tired I ran more upright and struck heel to toe. I have started to focus more on my technique especially on longer runs. By doing something as simple as leaning forward and forefoot striking during the entire run has made a big difference. I’m running with less effort and my legs feel fresh the day after a long run.

      Res firma mitescere nescit
      Running in Tampa

      C-R


        Jake, Careful about using Jim Furyk (or Ray Floyd for you old school golf fans) as an example. Wink His swing is perfect in the area where it matters most - that is the area about 6 inches prior to contact and 6 inches after contact. At that point his swing is in the ideal position. The rest is certainly not immaterial but more personal in nature. You can see this by reviewing slow motion images of Ben Hogan, Jack Nicklaus, Payne Stewart or any of the greats. BTW- just because I mimic Ben Hogan won't mean I will play like him - too many other varialbles but I can improve by using his instruction and form. Here is a general question - is there an ideal form for a basketball shooter, a golfer, a pole vaulter, a baseball pitcher, a swimmer, a figure skater, a martial artist, or fill in your sport. If the answer to this is yes, then peharps the answer is yes for running as well. It may not lead to Olympic or high level performance but merely an inacrease above the average for the average runner. Without being too grating - its just another way to try and improve and there are lots of other theories out there trying to do the same. As in anything - some proponents take it to fanatic levels. For me I have seen some results, but like I said before - from a scientific point of view I can not attribute all of it to one single thing. Smile


        "He conquers who endures" - Persius
        "Every workout should have a purpose. Every purpose should link back to achieving a training objective." - Spaniel

        http://ncstake.blogspot.com/

        Teresadfp


        One day at a time

          Jake, Here is a general question - is there an ideal form for a basketball shooter, a golfer, a pole vaulter, a baseball pitcher, a swimmer, a figure skater, a martial artist, or fill in your sport. If the answer to this is yes, then peharps the answer is yes for running as well. It may not lead to Olympic or high level performance but merely an inacrease above the average for the average runner. Without being too grating - its just another way to try and improve and there are lots of other theories out there trying to do the same. As in anything - some proponents take it to fanatic levels. For me I have seen some results, but like I said before - from a scientific point of view I can not attribute all of it to one single thing. Smile
          I laugh when I think about "ideal form" after watching DS 15 run. He looks so funny! But he just took third place in the state meet in the mile and two-mile, so I keep my mouth shut. I do wonder if a coach will try to change his form at some point!


          Why is it sideways?

            I laugh when I think about "ideal form" after watching DS 15 run. He looks so funny! But he just took third place in the state meet in the mile and two-mile, so I keep my mouth shut. I do wonder if a coach will try to change his form at some point!
            It CAN be useful to tinker with form, especially if you are looking for small gains. I think that the most important aspect of form is the ability to run relaxed; when I'm tired at the end of a race, I have a tendency to tense my shoulders. Practicing relaxing them in training has helped me run smoother and stronger. My sense is that a good coach can identify these spots of tension and the runner can work to relax them. I would be skeptical, however, of overhauling your form unless you can identify a specific problem: looking ugly, and "heel striking" don't count. Much better than trying to run with any particular form is practicing running relaxed and confident--and paying attention to the small things that keep you from doing so.
            JakeKnight


              Here is a general question - is there an ideal form for a basketball shooter, a golfer, a pole vaulter, a baseball pitcher, a swimmer, a figure skater, a martial artist, or fill in your sport. If the answer to this is yes, then peharps the answer is yes for running as well. It may not lead to Olympic or high level performance but merely an inacrease above the average for the average runner.
              I don't think anybody can disagree with that. I think the disagreement is in the way Pose (and Chi and similar methods) goes about trying to achieve that more-perfect form. Slow, incremental changes in form, steady increases in efficiency, are of course a good idea. But suddenly changing running style - especially from the pages of a book, without a coach who actually knows *your* body and *your* current form - seems risky at best. I think Jim2's links on an incremental approach make a lot more sense. And then there's that weirdly cultish aspect of how a lot of Pose followers seem to preach their gospel. What exactly is the deal there? Is there any actual science on Pose/Chi? Or how about an elite runner who had clearly maxed out his PRs and suddenly had an enormous gain? Anything like that? I'm more than open-minded enough to read about it. But it just seems that every single time I read about this stuff, its an average mid-packer going on and on about improvement ... when the improvement pretty obviously came from the training fundamentals. I mean, since I started drinking coffee regularly, I've dropped a full hour from my marathon PR. Should I write a book claiming coffee is the great secret of running? (Well, actually it is, but never mind). You see the point, I assume. It's the old causation versus correlation argument, and every Chi/Pose runner I've ever heard of doesn't distinguish between causation versus correlation. I'd love to read some actual science on it.

              E-mail: eric.fuller.mail@gmail.com
              -----------------------------

              C-R


                Good points. I would like to see more scientific evidence as well. The issue is pretty tough to really develop. First, what is it you want to know - improved running efficiency (I've seen this subject debated ad naseum with more ideas than quaker has oats), faster pace (directly impacted by conditioning), lower injury rate (could be any number reasons additional to form change), something else. Lets take a normal study process. You need a test and control group. If you are an elite runner training for whatever, is this change something you will undertake? I really can't see that happening. So we are forced to use good non elite runners, average runners and back of the pack types. Again, to do this correctly would require a well structured study and comparative analysis over a long period. Not impossible but certainly difficult. Alternately, how do you eliminate the possible gains made simply by running more. Not sure. This is most likely why a scientific analysis has been lacking or hard to come by. The couple of scientific studies I've read (one for and one against) seem to lack the totality needed for numerous reasons. I seriously doubt Chi would do this as it is more holistic in approach. Pose tries to get the scientific side but there are some holes. So I'm left to do my personal study with a sample size of 1 and no control group. That's why I said before, I can't/won't soley say it is the reason for my improvement as there are too many moving parts. Intellectual honesty prohibits me from claiming otherwise. I do like the confirmation of some of the basic ideas via other great coaches and top runners (light feet, flats, land under your body, high cadence......) and positive mental outlook is good for any sport to at least keep you trying/engaged. There are zealots on all sides that fully drink the kool-aid and that does not always help to move the discussion forward. As humans are involved, there is no One single best way as we are all built and perform differently. Perhaps some have forgotten or neglected this bit of data. Ultimately I run for the sheer enjoyment and can't do this if I'm hurt. So that is where my journey began and currently is paying dividends. I'm running a 10k this weekend (first in over 8 months) and will see how this holds up in a race setting. Perhaps I will have a good story to tell. Either way I will always continue to look for a more efficient running form that keeps me on the road and talk with other runners that have ideas or experiences to share. Big grin


                "He conquers who endures" - Persius
                "Every workout should have a purpose. Every purpose should link back to achieving a training objective." - Spaniel

                http://ncstake.blogspot.com/

                Scout7


                  There is no "perfect form", in running or anything, really. The problem with it is that every person's body is different. So their form is going to match the limits of their bodies. You cannot change your skeleton all that greatly. You aren't going to change how you're put together. That being said, form is something that can be improved. But what works for one individual will not work for another. There are ways to make your body more efficient/economical. Drills, practice, etc. But they don't work to "change" your form. They just make what you have better for you. And for the record HEEL STRIKING IS NOT BAD. In fact, it is no better or worse than any other type of foot strike. It is no faster, it is no more efficient, it is no more economical than a mid- or forefoot strike. OVERSTRIDING is bad.
                  jEfFgObLuE


                  I've got a fever...

                    Run hills. It's running-specific strength training. Run fast. Do strides during easy runs, and occasional fast 200m-ish reps with full recovery. Focus on staying fast, controlled, and relaxed. These two things will improve your form and running economy more effectively and safely than any conscious decision to alter your form.

                    On your deathbed, you won't wish that you'd spent more time at the office.  But you will wish that you'd spent more time running.  Because if you had, you wouldn't be on your deathbed.

                      Pose is just a scam to make money.
                        And for the record HEEL STRIKING IS NOT BAD. In fact, it is no better or worse than any other type of foot strike. It is no faster, it is no more efficient, it is no more economical than a mid- or forefoot strike. OVERSTRIDING is bad.
                        Are you sure about this. Re read what you wrote and tell me if you are sure about it. If you are, go sprint a 100m as fast as you can barefooted preferably while heel striking. If you are still convinced then OK I will not argue with you.
                        jEfFgObLuE


                        I've got a fever...

                          And for the record HEEL STRIKING IS NOT BAD. In fact, it is no better or worse than any other type of foot strike. It is no faster, it is no more efficient, it is no more economical than a mid- or forefoot strike. OVERSTRIDING is bad.
                          Are you sure about this. Re read what you wrote and tell me if you are sure about it. If you are, go sprint a 100m as fast as you can barefooted preferably while heel striking. If you are still convinced then OK I will not argue with you.
                          Heel striking is the primary sign of overstriding. I think what Scout is saying is that overstriding is the real problem in that scenario, and that heel striking is a by-product, not the problem itself. However, you usually don't have one without the other, so I think the distinction is moot.

                          On your deathbed, you won't wish that you'd spent more time at the office.  But you will wish that you'd spent more time running.  Because if you had, you wouldn't be on your deathbed.

                            I think that the most important aspect of form is the ability to run relaxed; when I'm tired at the end of a race, I have a tendency to tense my shoulders. Practicing relaxing them in training has helped me run smoother and stronger.
                            Amen!! I could not agree more. That's why I constantly remind myself to relax my jaw, hands and shoulders during the late astges of a race. If they are relaxed, the rest of the body follows suit.
                            Scout7


                              Are you sure about this. Re read what you wrote and tell me if you are sure about it. If you are, go sprint a 100m as fast as you can barefooted preferably while heel striking. If you are still convinced then OK I will not argue with you.
                              Yes, I'm sure. I don't run a marathon barefoot, nor do I do so at 100m speed. Heel striking in and of itself is not a problem. Overstriding is, which is marked by heel striking. However, just because you are a heel striker does not mean you are overstriding. Quick response to the issue. Foot strike and shock absorption. Bottom line is that there is no reason to think that heel striking is "bad".
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