Forums >General Running>I think the answer is it always 'it depends' but too much?
Fast is better than long
Basic Question: Am I running too much?
History: 20+ years ago I was a fairly competitive runner. I qualified for Nationals in college for both track and cross country. Qualified, but I didn't scare the real contenders. I was a middle distance runner. sub 50 quarter, sub 4 1500m, 9 and change steeplechase and mid 14 5000m. That training philosophy was run longer than the race for endurance. Run everything hard; never recall a training run over 6:15 pace.
I run with a club and there are (here too) two basic philosophies: Run as little as possible, it’ll kill you and run hard. I think the answer is specific to the runner and I will say that I feel weak and under prepared if I only run 4 days a week and float around the 40 mpw mark. I really started showing improvements in breathing, endurance and speed when I started working harder (btw, this did not surprise me). I have always felt I knew my body pretty well, so if I had a hard workout one day and feel sore or tight I either fully rest or rest by running short and slow.
Since October, 2010:
couple weeks of 3 milers a couple times a week in Sept. Nothing for the prior 20+ years.
October struggled to get 8 miles in walked at about 7.5 and the pace was 8:40s. At this point I am not yet committed to returning to running.
Late November got up to a long run of 12 miles and made it through at about 8:20-8:30s, but felt horrendous. Backed down to all sub-10 for a few weeks, but I was approaching daily or 5+ runs a week.
Early January I ran 15 at 8:45. It felt ok and I fell apart after 12 miles, but through 12 almost felt like a runner. That week I started some speed work.
Following week I ran 15 again and shaved like 10 minutes off and it felt almost OK (felt like maybe I am becoming a runner again)
Following week I run 7.5 on Sat and come back with a 12 on Sunday with the middle 5K at 7:00 pace.
Following week (I basically wanted to see if my legs could handle the marathon over the span of a weekend – 26.2 is still a daunting distance to me) I run 13.5 on Sat and 16 on Sun. Sat was rolling hills and Sunday was flat. Sunday I avg’d 7:50 and really felt ok at the end. This was the first day that I found out why you’re supposed to wear glide or the like and the area between the legs and not the front nor the back took a lot of rubbing. I’ll also say that I felt that run for 4-5 days.
Following week I did a 7.5 sat and a 14 on really rugged snow. Felt ok but the time did not reflect the effort since the footing was so bad. This didn’t faze me that day nor into the following week.
This week I did 5 x 1K between 5:35 and 6:15 pace then ran a 15 mile zippy run on Saturday and a relatively easy 12 on Sunday.
Hey thanks for reading so far, now my questions/concerns.
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Regarding your swallow question, it depends... depends on which one trained more intelligently.
When it comes to marathon training, both of your clubs two philosophies aren't very good:
>> I run with a club and there are (here too) two basic philosophies: Run as little as possible, it’ll kill you and run hard.
What you want is easy running.
I have no idea if you are running too much. You seem to be running 40ish mpw, which is ok... however, unless I'm reading your pretty graphs incorrectly (which is possible), you are running a lot of that fast. Too fast? Too much? I dunno. I stink at giving training advice.
1. I'm over 40 and running > 40 mpw has not made my knees explode.
2. 30 miles is 30 miles, but 18/12 is probably better than 15/15, although it is a loaded question. If you are running 40 mpw and 30 is in two days, that there might be a slightly bigger issue.
3. Strides are good. Careful with all that fast running. Really careful.
4. Ok?
5. You are ahead of some 1st time schedules mile wise... but watch all the fast running. That's WAY more than I would do at 40 mpw. But then I'm not that speedy and I don't train "right".
6. A block of wood.
I just wanted to quote the title of this thread: "I think the answer is it always 'it depends' but too much?".
That's what I responded to. The rest just looked like too many words so I stopped after the title to ask for clarification.
Upon reading srlopez' sincere response I felt a tiny bit bad (okay not really) and went back and read a bit. The OP has sub 50 400 and a mid 14's 5000 backintheday. Well now.
At any rate I'd say, no, odds are you're not running too much.
Why is it sideways?
Talent doesn't go away. Be patient, build slow, keep building and you will likely surprise yourself.
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.... That training philosophy was run longer than the race for endurance. Run everything hard; never recall a training run over 6:15 pace. I run with a club and there are (here too) two basic philosophies: Run as little as possible, it’ll kill you and run hard. ...
I run with a club and there are (here too) two basic philosophies: Run as little as possible, it’ll kill you and run hard. ...
I think both sentences above are fairly pivotal to your point, but I found both difficult to understand.
A)
"run longer than the race for endurance" -- Do you mean run more every day than you race distance? Surely most competitive runners do that -- milers pretty much have to, I think
B)
Are the two basic philosophies (not sure where the contrast started)?
vs
I'm not sure what either of these really mean. Does "run hard" mean run fast all the time, or run so much it hurts, or ... what?
It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.
backintheday.
With a recent 50 min 8K, I would not train at 8 -9 min/mile paces, but then again I never ran faster than a 7 min/mile pace at any distance so what do I know. But I'd be careful running even some of my training runs at my 3 K pace, maybe I am a big wuss when it comes to workouts.
MTA - OK I think I misread your PRs They are not actually races are they?
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To restate Jeff: "Talent doesn't go away."
Fitness does, talent doesn't
I think it's safe to say though that he won't be able to train the say way in terms of every workout is hard.
With a recent 50 min 8K, I would not train at 8 -9 min/mile paces
Okay pet peeve of mine. If you're going to pull some single random data point of someone's training log to make a point, at least consider big picture. The 8k in question:
This was sheer murder enacted by the race organizers. There was 4-5 inches of snow. The temp was about 22 at race time with a double digit wind out of the NW. At no point is the course flat for as much as a quarter mile. The first open field is just that an open field with tall grass and ruts created by pasturing animals. It felt great on the ankle I rolled the day before. It was fun watching people fall on near flat ground. The Hills went straigt up and straight down. There were two creek crossings the water was covered by ice before the first runner came through and then we all fell into the creek to our knees. It's a Tuff Man race, but it was a ball; great to have completed it.
The OP ran 15 miles at 7:26 pace on Saturday so I'm thinking 8-9's aren't going to be a major problem.
I think both sentences above are fairly pivotal to your point, but I found both difficult to understand. A) "run longer than the race for endurance" -- Do you mean run more every day than you race distance? Surely most competitive runners do that -- milers pretty much have to, I think B) Are the two basic philosophies (not sure where the contrast started)? Run as little as possible, it'll kill you vs run hard I'm not sure what either of these really mean. Does "run hard" mean run fast all the time, or run so much it hurts, or ... what?
Thanks all so far...
A. As a mid distance runner the mentality is run longer so the short distance on race day is easy and can be run faster, but I'm pretty sure that theory fails when it comes to marathoning. I only mentioned it because it's my "known" frame of mind. When I think that a typical marathoner never runs that distance before the event it makes sense to some degree, but is so different than what I am used to. I count this as a mental problem not a physical one
B. You have the break in philospohies correct.
The one school is run as little as possible to get you to the distance. Try to up the distance on your long runs because the only real goal is to get you used to covering the distance. (Granted, I very must paraphrased this).
The other school is if you're gonna be out there running, you may as well run hard. The better the quality of the training the better the outcome of the event. I recall my HS and college coaches always spewing the mantra that long slow distance makes long slow distance runners. I do think as a youngin' the coaches did want you to run til it hurt. and when it hurt run til you fall over. I realize that is absurd at my age as I am not going to get on a track to compete for my place on the team or a scholarship, and at my age recovery takes a wee bit longer than it did at 20. I do like feeling sore or that I gave a full effort in training, but as soon as I feel I am overdoing it I back off. My legs feel tired when I plod along at 10-13 min miles I feel the more vertical up and down just pile drives my legs versus striding out and trying to skip across the ground.
Again, my outlook is skewed because I ran short and thrived on competition, so my goals may differ from a person who is just trying to complete the distance. So as I transition to this crazy distance of 26.2 I'm trying to figure out what from my past still applies and what must be forgotten.
Okay pet peeve of mine. If you're going to pull some single random data point of someone's training log to make a point, at least consider big picture. The 8k in question: This was sheer murder enacted by the race organizers. There was 4-5 inches of snow. The temp was about 22 at race time with a double digit wind out of the NW. At no point is the course flat for as much as a quarter mile. The first open field is just that an open field with tall grass and ruts created by pasturing animals. It felt great on the ankle I rolled the day before. It was fun watching people fall on near flat ground. The Hills went straigt up and straight down. There were two creek crossings the water was covered by ice before the first runner came through and then we all fell into the creek to our knees. It's a Tuff Man race, but it was a ball; great to have completed it. The OP ran 15 miles at 7:26 pace on Saturday so I'm thinking 8-9's aren't going to be a major problem.
Yup, see my MTA above. I should not be commenting on someones training who can run 15 miles faster than my 5K pace.