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Advice--running first marathon next year (Read 1402 times)

    ...I still want to keep up my halves--I get Nobby's point about needing to focus on training and not do things that could get in the way of that, but then people are also saying I should be doing a 2 hr run every week so to me I don't see why the halves couldn't be that long run in the weeks I have them, then weeks that I don't I'll do a longer regular training run...

    In general, there'd be basically 3 different "paces" for training; usual aerobic run, easy recovery jog, and hard tempo run (I'm not counting interval here).  It sounds "cool" to say, well, train by how you feel; meaning, if you feel good, just press the effort whenever...  But, let's face it, most of us can't even listen to our own body's signals.  In other words, if we don't have a structure in training, more often than not, people keep pushing when they feel good and end up hurting.  Personally I prefer having a structure, having "purpose" for each and every workout.  Structure gives you consistency; consistency brings predictability.  

     

    So you may say that, it takes roughly 2-hours for you to run a half marathon and, since most of us suggest to do a long run of about 2-hours, why not do it in a form of half marathon?  Sounds logical.  Personally, I wouldn't suggest it.  Your PR half came on 7/29 in 2:05 (9:36 pace).  Your last half was on 9/8 and it took you 2:55 (13:22 pace).  Maybe you just jogged with your friend; maybe you had a bad day; maybe the course was terribly hilly...  But the potential problem with "substituting races for specific workout" is that (1) if you feel good, you push (you ran your 10k PR only a week before your half PR and your aerobic workout pace looks more like 10:30-11:00 pace); and (2) even if you're having a bad day, you struggle to complete it.  Granted, it's hard to say because you did set 10k PR followed by a half PR.  Can't complain.  Could you have run better if you peak for a race?  Who knows???  But most predictors would tell you, based on your 5k time, you should be able to run 52min.-10k and 1:55-half.

     

    There had been a case, in fact, several cases, where a runner raced a lot and did very well.  Most recently, Japan's Kawauchi had shown that he had been very successful by racing frequently.  He recently ran 2 marathons only 3 weeks apart.  The trick with racing frequently is recovery.  And actually this is the part I actually have a trouble with your idea; you seem to tend to just continue the cycle of racing and recovery, which is a good idea, and there's no room for "development".  So your argument is; wouldn't running around 2-hours at good effort benefit to this development?  Well, I guess and I'm not quite sure...  I guess it could be.  I'd probably need a bit more input to say yay or nay.  But, to be honest with you, at this point, based on some information I see, perhaps not so much.  Now I agree, some people get a kick out of racing a lot and they don't want to give that up.  Then who am I to suggest otherwise?  But--and here's this "but" that you need to think very hard about--if you actually like to do well in those races, then you may need to think about the approach a bit differently.  Long runs can be boring...  Sure, but not everything that's necessary is a lot of fun and we all enjoy doing it.  You do it diligently because you know it's necessary.  And, unfortunately, not everything that's fun is necessarily good for us.  That's where certain discipline comes in.

      ...However, you don't race long runs...

      Pretty much this.

        Don't overdo the long runs. If you look at marathon training schedules (I've used Nobby's and Jack Daniel's), you'll see that the longest runs are 2.5 hrs. I would guess most people will tell you not to go over 3 hours, for you that's probably about 18 miles. By the way, I'm very guilty of violating this, I used to do 20 - 22, then 18, my next bout of training I'll try 16. Yes, it's scary to train 10 miles less than your goal race! Smile

        Arla:

         

        Thanks for posting my name right next to Dr. Daniels! ;o)  But my real question is; which one did you use first; ours or Jack's?

         

        Seriously, I think we sort of lost track but I do believe we owe you a Running Wizard plan as well as Lydiard Foundation membership.  Why don't you send me an e-mail and we'll sort it out?  We are, actually as we speak, finally this time really working to sort things out.  It's been a long road...

          I'm not convinced that  there's a whole lot of  point in a ~4:30-5:00 hour marathoner worrying about training pace at all - just run at a pace that's comfortable for a decent amount of time.


          Queen of 3rd Place

            Nobby, I tried Daniel's program first (BQ'd), but felt awful. 

             

            Last year I started with your program, but had a motorcycle accident and couldn't complete it. What I did do was GREAT, I enjoyed it,  felt like I was getting a lot faster than I did with Daniels, and with less discomfort. That being said, I also had another year of running under my belt. 

             

            I'll send you a private message sometime. Smile

             

             

             

            I'm not convinced that  there's a whole lot of  point in a ~4:30-5:00 hour marathoner worrying about training pace at all - just run at a pace that's comfortable for a decent amount of time

             pr100 - c'mon, that's kind of a mean thing to say! For some people, that might be racing! Case in point, current BQ times:

            18-34 3hrs 05min 00sec 3hrs 35min 00sec
            35-39 3hrs 10min 00sec 3hrs 40min 00sec
            40-44 3hrs 15min 00sec 3hrs 45min 00sec
            45-49 3hrs 25min 00sec 3hrs 55min 00sec
            50-54 3hrs 30min 00sec 4hrs 00min 00sec
            55-59 3hrs 40min 00sec 4hrs 10min 00sec
            60-64 3hrs 55min 00sec 4hrs 25min 00sec
            65-69 4hrs 10min 00sec 4hrs 40min 00sec
            70-74 4hrs 25min 00sec 4hrs 55min 00sec
            75-79 4hrs 40min 00sec 5hrs 10min 00sec
            80 and over 4hrs 55min 00sec 5hrs 25min 00sec

            Ex runner

              It's not mean, it's just math.  4:30-5 hour race pace most likely equals easy pace or slower for most people.

              Runners run.

                I'm not offended by the comment about 4:30-5:00 marathoners...I'm not an athletically gifted person in the first place, and I waited until age 38 to take up running so I don't expect to ever have a really good marathon finish time.   (By the time I'm 70-80, I hope to actually be competitive!  But until then I think the best I can expect is some age group medals in smaller less competitive 5K's)  Since this will be my first marathon my primary goal is finishing and not feeling so awful that I never want to do another one.  I mentioned 4:30 because I want to have something to train towards, but when race day comes I expect that goal will go out the window at some point between mile 18-20.

                   pr100 - c'mon, that's kind of a mean thing to say! For some people, that might be racing! Case in point, current BQ times:

                   

                  I didn't mean it unkindly.

                   

                  But I do think that in training for that kind of thing the most important thing is time on feet, and pace is not a very important consideration.

                    It's not mean, it's just math.  4:30-5 hour race pace most likely equals easy pace or slower for most people.

                    What I found from my two 4:30+ marathons is that the shuffle/walk of the last 6-8 miles of a marathon is what makes the race slower than the easy training pace (slower than recovery runs in my case). The training should be geared towards minimizing this wog.  It's still a work in progress for me.  

                    Of course training for the course one is running may help, but in my case that stupid marathon course is quite unique and similar hills are a bit difficult to find in my area.


                    Bushrat Runner

                      Two things. First, I have found that I can comfortably finish a marathon with 30 miles per week but I run 4:20 with that sort of training and tend to die the last few miles. While with my mileage up to 50+ mpw I can run 3:50 and finish faster without cratering. Based on the fact that you are training so little and running 2 hr half marathons, I suspect you could be a pretty fast runner if you put in the miles. Second, the sort of program that will work best is different for everybody. I am much better at short distances (but I like the way long distances feel). For me the greatest improvements in marathon times have come from just adding volume, lots of mostly slow miles. Your results may differ. A lot. But they may not. Enjoy the running.

                        I'm not convinced that  there's a whole lot of  point in a ~4:30-5:00 hour marathoner worrying about training pace at all - just run at a pace that's comfortable for a decent amount of time.

                        On the contrary, I think 4:30~5:00 hour marathon people actually should think about...well, maybe not so much "pace" but some sort of "speed" training.  I don't like the trend today of: "I want run a marathon because I've been running for 2-months now" ==> "I need to put in lots of time on my feet" ==> "but I'm so slow so I'd better go slower" ==> "Now I can run 20-miles...(so they spend hours and hours, literally, 3 or 4 or 5 hours on weekend, running 20-miles)" cycle.  I think the beginner should incorporate some form of fast strides, whatever the amount they can manage, from the get-go so they'll work on good form, good knee lift, develop strong legs, etc.  Some form of hill or step training would be ideal to strengthen legs.  Personally, I think you shouldn't even consider training for a full marathon unless you can run ONE mile in...I'm tempted to say 8-minutes but I'll back down a bit and say, 9-minutes.  That's about 35-second for 100m.

                          Your PR half came on 7/29 in 2:05 (9:36 pace).  Your last half was on 9/8 and it took you 2:55 (13:22 pace).  Maybe you just jogged with your friend; maybe you had a bad day; maybe the course was terribly hilly...

                           

                          I can answer that - the latter is a hilly trail race probably with some technical trail sections. The former is a net downhill road race. Apples and oranges. Liz, I agree you should add midweek easy mileage. Get a light (headlamp or handheld) and find a route you're comfortable on.


                          just a simple cat

                            ........  Personally, I think you shouldn't even consider training for a full marathon unless you can run ONE mile in...I'm tempted to say 8-minutes but I'll back down a bit and say, 9-minutes.  That's about 35-second for 100m.

                             Sad

                             

                            Running is stupid


                            Queen of 3rd Place

                              I can answer that - the latter is a hilly trail race probably with some technical trail sections. The former is a net downhill road race. Apples and oranges. Liz, I agree you should add midweek easy mileage. Get a light (headlamp or handheld) and find a route you're comfortable on.

                               

                              I was thinking about this safety issue some more, then I remembered that at my local HS track there are almost always people around (the earliest I've been there is 4:30), most of them just doing laps. Seems very safe. Boring...but it would be a safe place to run with headphones.

                              Ex runner


                              Queen of 3rd Place

                                I didn't mean it unkindly.

                                 

                                OK, I believe you! Thanks from one those slow people! Big grin

                                Ex runner

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