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Does A Strong Finish Mean Bad Pacing? (Read 845 times)

    Yesterday I discovered that if you try to out sprint the guy trying to out sprint you for the line and end up loosing because you just do a funky chicken dance instead you probably got your pacing right.

    scappodaqui


    rather be sprinting

      Wow, this is an interesting read.

       

      What about someone like Galen Rupp who really didn't have a kick until, oh, this year's Olympics?

      PRs: 5k 19:25, mile 5:38, HM 1:30:56

      Lifting PRs: back squat 176 lb

        Wow, this is an interesting read.

         

        What about someone like Galen Rupp who really didn't have a kick until, oh, this year's Olympics?

         

        The way to have a great kick is to be in better shape than everyone else.


        A Saucy Wench

          Wow, this is an interesting read.

           

          What about someone like Galen Rupp who really didn't have a kick until, oh, this year's Olympics?

           

          My guess is in highschool Galen never NEEDED the kick and so he learned to cruise the finish a bit and it took some time to change that.

          I have become Death, the destroyer of electronic gadgets

           

          "When I got too tired to run anymore I just pretended I wasnt tired and kept running anyway" - dd, age 7

            Okay, I'm going to contradict myself with what I've said earlier.  It is true that, everything else equal (or, actually, it doesn't even have to be equal), the one with more fast twitch fibers will win simply because, well, they are fast.  That clip of Vaatinen is a great example.  On the other side of the coin, here's a clip of perhaps the greatest distance runner ever lived; Ron Clarke of Australia (green shorts), very fit and strong, getting beaten simply because he didn't have a kick.  The guy who won, the Scottish guy, may actually be more tired here (you'll never know...) but he's faster/quicker.

             

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1XsjPsN6IQ (about 2:20 into this)

             

            Now, these are examples of "fast finish".  This however does not mean that, unless you're "fast", you can't win.  This is an interesting part of our sport--distance running.  Here's one of the best example of that:

             

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK0woLEtQQA (particularly 1:27 and 2:15 into it)

             

            Especially in 1500m final (2:15 into this clip), it looks just ridiculous how he "kicks".  Interestingly, however, he (Snell) was actually the SLOWEST running in the final of 800m in 1960 and 1964 as well as this 1500m final in terms of "speed" (200m speed).  He had the slowest 200m time among all the runners he ran against in those finals.  It is in fact like what Jeff said a bit earlier; if you are so super fit (in a great shape), then you can manage the earlier part of the race AND, in the final part of the race, you can run at the fastest.  In other words, in 800m (the first race), the black guy in green (black) shorts had the fastest speed.  He was a good 1.5 second faster than Snell in 200m.  But Snell was "marathon-trained" while Kurr (Jamaican) was interval-trained--repeat fast "dashes" with recovery intervals and no distance work.  By the time they reach 600m mark, Kurr was too tired to capitalize his superior speed.  It's not like Snell was slacking earlier in the race that he could kick and Kurr did a "good pacing" that he couldn't kick.

             

            Now, to make a matter even more interesting; here's another interesting clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWsAACwEki4  The champion, Borzakovsky, looked to be the fastest in the final 100m, passing literally everybody in quite an impressive fashion.  In fact, the truth of the fact is; it's not so much he was "fastest" but he actually "slowed down least".  I actually have the split time of these guys (the statistics God, Dave Martin gave it to me) and Borza's split was actually the "most even".  So, yes, he had the best "pacing" and it appeared he had the best kick.

             

            Here's an example of a guy who had the least speed (in shorter distances) and yet beat all the speedsters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1H_JzBVqkuI&feature=player_detailpage  One of my favorite race clips to watch (my wife always harasses me by asking; "Would someone else win this time?").  The winner, Viren, probably had the slowest "kick" in the field.  Quax, the guy in black top and bottom, who finished second, had the fastest mile and Dixon, another guy in black top and bottom who finished 4th, was 5 seconds faster in 800m race than Viren.  Yet, Viren out-kicked everybody.  He turned this into one of the most "honest" races in Olympic history; he pushed the pace in the final 3k or so--in fact, he picked up the pace each kilometer and they were flying all-out in the last 3 or 4 laps to get the "sting" out of those faster guys.

             

            So it can be done.

            MrNamtor


            DON'T TREAD ON ME

              Okay, I'm going to contradict myself with what I've said earlier.

               

              THIS is exactly why I love your posts. And I'm being serious.

              MrNamtor


              DON'T TREAD ON ME

                One thing i noticed is that at the end of the first race, the 10k, the winner did not seem on the verge of throwing up or too tired to do anything.

                 

                And I wonder about this because I have noticed that as i run more and get fitter,  I simply do not feel this way when i run, as if I am dying or breathless or naseous. Not on a training run and not in a race.  I used to feel really miserable when i started to run but now i don't. At that point (when i first started running) I ran at a pace that was fast enough for my level of fitness to make me feel sick and struggling for breath when i stopped.

                 

                It seems obvious to me that at some pace I should be really dying and ready to chuck up breakfast or whatever. If I'm fitter than i used to be, it should only be a question of finding that faster pace to duplicate this condition. But something keeps me from going at this pace. I never do. Almost like I can't.

                 

                And yet others who are at least as fit as i am, probably fitter, like Mr MattM and others, say they do this when they race. So I'm still puzzled.

                   

                  The way to have a great kick is to be in better shape than everyone else.

                   

                  Absolutely.  You don't have to have a faster 100m time than the rest - you just have to be in a position to be able to access what speed you do have when it matters.


                  Feeling the growl again

                     

                    Absolutely.  You don't have to have a faster 100m time than the rest - you just have to be in a position to be able to access what speed you do have when it matters.

                     

                    I have zero speed.  Zip.  Never did, never will.  It is embarassing to run anything under a mile.

                     

                    So what do you do when you don't have a kick and know it?  You make sure nobody has one left to use on you.  When racing someone I know or suspect to have a recent kick in say, a 5K, I'll start pressing the pace a mile out and continue to press it unless I build a safe lead.  One of two things happens.  1) I run most of the kick out of them making it much easier to beat them at the end, or 2) find out they were in better shape than me anyways and they still beat me.

                    "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                     

                    Julia1971


                      One thing i noticed is that at the end of the first race, the 10k, the winner did not seem on the verge of throwing up or too tired to do anything.

                       

                      And I wonder about this because I have noticed that as i run more and get fitter,  I simply do not feel this way when i run, as if I am dying or breathless or naseous. Not on a training run and not in a race.  I used to feel really miserable when i started to run but now i don't. At that point (when i first started running) I ran at a pace that was fast enough for my level of fitness to make me feel sick and struggling for breath when i stopped.

                       

                      It seems obvious to me that at some pace I should be really dying and ready to chuck up breakfast or whatever. If I'm fitter than i used to be, it should only be a question of finding that faster pace to duplicate this condition. But something keeps me from going at this pace. I never do. Almost like I can't.

                       

                      And yet others who are at least as fit as i am, probably fitter, like Mr MattM and others, say they do this when they race. So I'm still puzzled.

                       

                      I don't race/pace a 5K in the same way as I do a 10K.  Or, a half marathon.  Or a full marathon...  Perhaps one of the real experts can chime in on this, because I'm not sure of the terminology, but I don't think you can compare pacing/racing strategies of all these distances because you're not taping into the same systems at the same levels.

                       

                      The bolded portion is why I was saying I wasn't setting PRs in the 5K until I started consciously going out harder than I thought I could.  I doubted I could run that fast.  I could.  I just wasn't letting myself.

                       

                      Also, feeling like you're going to throw up = okay.  Actually throwing up =/= okay.  Work on your meal timing.  No one wants to see that.

                      The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now. – Chinese Proverb

                        I'm pretty sure I know how to pace a 5k and leave nothing in the tank and I haven't puked or felt like I was going to puke after a race in more than 10 years--since about the first or second 5k I ever ran as an adult.

                         

                        MTA: I also don't think you can always judge someone else's effort by their outward appearance. The winner of the 10k may very well not have run a 100% max effort, especially if he won by a large margin, but he most likely worked harder than he appeared. You do get better at dealing with the discomfort of racing (getting comfortable being uncomfortable) so that you can maintain a fairly serene outward appearance even when you're suffering. You learn that all the grimacing, pissing and moaning, and other histrionics just wastes energy.

                        Runners run.

                           

                          I have zero speed.  Zip.  Never did, never will.  It is embarassing to run anything under a mile.

                           

                          So what do you do when you don't have a kick and know it?  You make sure nobody has one left to use on you.  When racing someone I know or suspect to have a recent kick in say, a 5K, I'll start pressing the pace a mile out and continue to press it unless I build a safe lead.  One of two things happens.  1) I run most of the kick out of them making it much easier to beat them at the end, or 2) find out they were in better shape than me anyways and they still beat me.

                           

                          I avoid a kick if I want to beat a specific person.

                          Everyone on the planet can beat me on a sprint, I think.  My preschooler beats me in sprints.

                          I have done races entirely to help somebody else that was having trouble. Significantly below my race pace the whole race while they are hitting a PR, and then they decide to race the last straight away and they beat me by a couple steps.  Not as much as they can beat me when they are fresh but they still do.

                          I was at a marathon once where I didn't care about time but another runner in my age group annoyed me, and started racing me-- her short distance PRs all are much better than mine but my long distance beats hers, so I started pressing assuming I would survive the carnage better-- but it had to be done so I could lose her well in advance to the finish.

                          I know what happens if it comes to a true kick, and it doesn't work out well for me!

                           

                           

                          Oh, and I agree with the energy systems leading to an ability to kick, and the brain being willing to dig deeper at the very end where it might have shut things down earlier because it likes preserving you an awful lot.  I had a longer post on that, before I realized that the smarter and more elequent people had already posted and left me with only the ability to share a personal anecdote on finishing kicks.

                          PR's (certified courses)

                          5K-; 21:45 ; 10K- 45:17; Half: 1:41 --- full : 3:40   (2009)

                          Distance - 54 mi, 10 hours (2012)

                           

                          Current Weight: 185 lb

                          Goal Weight: 130 lb

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