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Question on BQ training (Read 204 times)


MM #7877

    I've had a tremendous year getting fit, and just ran my 1st marathon in 5 years. I ran a 3:45.06 and trained exclusively with long slow distance and no intervals / tempos / etc.  I would like to start training to work towards a BQ time. I'm 47, so I will need to get under a 3:25. That means I will need to take off 20 minutes from my marathon. 

     

    So I put together a training plan for a March marathon, (and I dont necessarily project to BQ at that marathon, but I want to train towards that eventual goal) so let me ask some questions.

     

    Intervals. My plan includes 1/2 mile and mile intervals.  Should I run these 1/2 mile intervals in 3:25, or should I go faster? (something about Yasso 800's - but I'm doing 1/2 mile instead) And as for the 1 mile intervals: should I do these in a 7:42 mile pace (which is faster then what I need to BQ), or something faster?

     

    5K / 10K tempo runs: Based on my current half and marathon times, a race pace calculator suggests I can run a 5K in 23:06 (7:26 pace) and a 10K in 47:59 (7:43 pace). BTW - I havent ran any 5K's or 10K's in years. However, if I plug the BQ time into the pace calculator, it suggests I run a 10K in 43:42 (7:02) and a 5K in 21:02 (6:46). So when I go out and do these tempo runs, should I be going out at my current projected 5K & 10K pace, or should I be working up to a BQ projected pace?

     

    Maybe more questions to come. But constructive comments are appreciated. Thanks.

    Philippians 4:13.

      The details between workouts being 0.5 mile, and 800m repeats is completely unimportant, up until you're measuring something as about 5k vs 3 miles it's not worth losing sleep over the conversion.

       

      If you haven't trained or raced 5k/10k, and you haven't done any speed work, you might get a lot out of training for and running a spring season of something like 4 5ks and 2 10ks, so that you can experiment with different workouts and see what works well for you.  Then hit July/August, and start the marathon buildup for the fall with that extra knowledge, and probably some new prs.

       

      Also, training and racing shorter will help those pace calculators become more accurate because race predictors assume appropriate training for the race distance, which you haven't really done with the LSD work.  Basically I think you'd learn a lot from training for some shorter races that would answer a lot of your questions.

      Know thyself.

       

        I agree with DaBurger. Don't sweat the details too much. Do *some* faster running a couple times a week and keep running decent mileage. Race at 5k-half marathon from time to time both to gauge your current fitness and as workouts/practice racing.

         

        And maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're saying but you don't want to run tempos at your 5k or 10k race pace--that would make it a race, not a temp run. A tempo run should be more like the pace you could run for an hour, so for you that's a bit slower than 10k pace. Train at current fitness, not goal pace. Add strides and/or short hill charges once or twice a week.

         

        You may want to pick up one of the more well regarded marathon training books like Advanced Marathoning by Pfitzinger and Douglas. Read it and understand it, don't just skip to the recommended schedules.

        Runners run.


        MM #7877

          That is what I was asking about tempo runs - the training plan wasnt clear to me. So I read that I should be doing tempo runs at a bit slower than 10K pace. And you answered my other question - I should train at current fitness not necessarily goal pace. Which also tells me that as fitness level increases, I would be training at that level. And hopefully sometime in 2014, I will be working at goal pace.

           

          How about the mile interval repeats?  I need to sustain a 7:42 to be under a 3:25 to BQ.  Should my mile intervals be at that pace? or should they be faster?  I cant find anywhere that states how fast I should be running my mile intervals.

          Philippians 4:13.

            Mile repeats or intervals are generally run at a pace much faster than marathon pace. The exact pace, the exact number of reps, and the recovery are really determined by what you're training for and what's the purpose of the workout.

             

            If your next goal race isn't until March, then I'd just use the mile intervals as one of your general fitness (LT) workouts, similar in purpose to a tempo run. Do them at about 10k pace or a tiny bit slower, and keep the recovery short, like under 2 minutes. These should not be gut-wrenching, hands on knees gasping for air after--you should be able to glide into a recovery jog and keep moving.

            Runners run.


            ultramarathon/triathlete

              Don't over think it.  Continue the strong base and long runs, ramp up your miles gradually, include speedwork and occasional short distance races (as speedwork, as fitness-checks, to build more race experience, and for fun).

               

              My first BQ came after I had decided to ramp up mileage a bit, but I really attribute it to the inclusion of once a week speedwork (fartleks, hills, whatever).  The trick for me was that I did it every week.   I now include speedwork twice a week, which works well for me, and I've gotten quite a bit faster.

               

              But, as a lot of fast guys on here will say, the BQ will come with a combination of time/consistency/high mileage.

               

              Congrats on the 3:45.  I have no doubts a reasonable person could knock 20 minutes off of that without killing themselves, assuming some solid training.  My money is on you making your goal. Don't forget to rest and bla bla bla all that other stuff.

               

              Short version:  Consistent speedwork + more miles.

              HTFU?  Why not!

              Coach: Empire Tri Club 

              Speed Coach: Brooklyn Tri Club
              USATF Coach

                If your training log is accurate, I'd  bet you can get to 3:25 without doing anything more than you're already doing - training exclusively with long slow STEADY distance and no intervals / tempos / etc.  You have massive gains awaiting you just from running more.  Period.  You much less likely to get injured by taking it easy.  Good luck.


                MM #7877

                  Thanks guys. That answers my initial questions.

                  Philippians 4:13.

                    If your training log is accurate, I'd  bet you can get to 3:25 without doing anything more than you're already doing - training exclusively with long slow STEADY distance and no intervals / tempos / etc.  You have massive gains awaiting you just from running more.  Period.  You much less likely to get injured by taking it easy.  Good luck.

                     

                    to put it a different way, I don't know anyone who runs 70 miles a week and does not have a BQ.


                    MM #7877

                      My training log on here isnt complete, I log to an excel spreadsheet mostly.

                       

                      But I'm guessing you probably dont know too many people who lost 72 pounds in 4 months through jogging and ran a marathon ( a 3:45.06 in Columbus last weekend)  to celebrate the accomplishment either.  So maybe now I am taking that next step to work towards getting faster in hopes I can run a BQ in 2014.

                      Philippians 4:13.

                        don't know if my post came out as anything other than , you can do this by just doing what you've been doing and not have to really worry about all the minutiae of a training plan.

                         

                        Losing 70 lbs is awesome and I do know a few who have taken up running lost weight and look like a different person altogether and their medical issues disappeared.  hope all the best in your journey

                          I recommend reading "Pete Pitzinger Advance Marathon Training." I followed his 18-55 plan (18 weeks peak @ 55 mi/week) and BQ last January in my first marathon. Next, take your recent race and plug in your time and distance into McMillan Running calculator (http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/index.php/calcUsage/calculate). Click the "Calculate" button and you will see what you should race at different distances. Click the "Training Paces" tab on the left and you will see the paces you need for intervals, tempos and all other workouts. Good luck, stay healthy and train smart.

                           

                          I've had a tremendous year getting fit, and just ran my 1st marathon in 5 years. I ran a 3:45.06 and trained exclusively with long slow distance and no intervals / tempos / etc.  I would like to start training to work towards a BQ time. I'm 47, so I will need to get under a 3:25. That means I will need to take off 20 minutes from my marathon.

                           

                          So I put together a training plan for a March marathon, (and I dont necessarily project to BQ at that marathon, but I want to train towards that eventual goal) so let me ask some questions.

                           

                          Intervals. My plan includes 1/2 mile and mile intervals.  Should I run these 1/2 mile intervals in 3:25, or should I go faster? (something about Yasso 800's - but I'm doing 1/2 mile instead) And as for the 1 mile intervals: should I do these in a 7:42 mile pace (which is faster then what I need to BQ), or something faster?

                           

                          5K / 10K tempo runs: Based on my current half and marathon times, a race pace calculator suggests I can run a 5K in 23:06 (7:26 pace) and a 10K in 47:59 (7:43 pace). BTW - I havent ran any 5K's or 10K's in years. However, if I plug the BQ time into the pace calculator, it suggests I run a 10K in 43:42 (7:02) and a 5K in 21:02 (6:46). So when I go out and do these tempo runs, should I be going out at my current projected 5K & 10K pace, or should I be working up to a BQ projected pace?

                           

                          Maybe more questions to come. But constructive comments are appreciated. Thanks.

                           


                          Feeling the growl again

                            Good advice so far...to follow up on the tempo run issue, if you are doing say a 20-25min tempo run you should be running at a pace you could sustain...ie race...for an hour.  In other words, when you finish a tempo run it should be a solid effort but you should feel like you could keep on going at that pace.

                            "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                             


                            I'm back!

                              Careful if you use a Pfitzinger plan and do his tempo workouts. He has you doing up to 7-mile tempos, which is a solid workout if you are a sub-3 guy, but a lot more brutal if you are going by current LT pace for a 3:45 guy. E.g. If you call LT slightly slower than 10k pace, and try to run 7 miles of that... you get the picture.

                               

                              Pfitzinger is great, and I recommend his plans too, but here and there it's clear he is thinking of faster runners.


                              A Saucy Wench

                                My training log on here isnt complete, I log to an excel spreadsheet mostly.

                                 

                                But I'm guessing you probably dont know too many people who lost 72 pounds in 4 months through jogging and ran a marathon ( a 3:45.06 in Columbus last weekend)  to celebrate the accomplishment either.  So maybe now I am taking that next step to work towards getting faster in hopes I can run a BQ in 2014.

                                 

                                This is still where I see you getting a LOT of gains without sweating the details too much.  You are still at the beginning of your running.  My bet is that if you went out and simply repeated the training that you did for Columbus keeping effort somewhat similar you would shave a huge chunk off your finishing time.

                                 

                                Some of the plans get bogged down in the specific paces and you will be doing calculations all the time.  Once you get an idea of what the paces mean don't over think it.

                                I have become Death, the destroyer of electronic gadgets

                                 

                                "When I got too tired to run anymore I just pretended I wasnt tired and kept running anyway" - dd, age 7

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