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Help Becomming a Better Adaptive Runner Per Hudson (2:56 PR seeking 2:50) (Read 207 times)

So_Im_a_Runner


Go figure

    Hi everyone.  I post regularly in some of the forums, but I'm branching out to the larger community in hopes of getting some new perspectives on my running and training.

     

    I raced the Toledo marathon on 4/28 using the Marathon Level 3 plan from Hudson's "Run Faster from the 5k to the Marathon" book.  I followed the plan pretty closely, but I padded the mileage a fair amount and ended up with a peak week of 109.2 miles.  I was only adaptive in the sense that I made some of the easy runs recovery paced runs, and I dropped a couple of the speed sessions when I was feeling poorly.  Ultimately, I was thrilled with the plan as I stayed healthy the whole cycle and raced strongly to a 2:56, a 16 minute PR (here's a link to the RR if you think it'd give you any extra insight, or you just feel like reading:  http://www.runningahead.com/groups/BF_and_Beyond/forum/3d7a0a2f7e904716a927d118ec19c771/0).

     

    I'm planning on running Columbus on 10/20, and I intend to use Hudson this time too.  Again, I'll be upping the mileage and shooting for about an 80mpw average.  Other than that, I don't know to do with the plan.  I'm afraid of following the exact plan again because I don't want to plateau, mentally or physically.  Also, I struggled with some of the threshold workouts, particularly these that came in weeks 12, 13, and 17:

     

    3 miles easy

    2 x 10min @ HMP/10k pace with 2min active recovery

    3 miles easy

     

    These workouts built to 3x10 min in wk 13, and then 4x10 min in wk 17

     

    Is there something I can do earlier in the plan to help me better prepare for these workouts?  I'm concerned I don't have the speed necessary to carry the 6:30 pace that a 2:50 marathon requires.  Since I have the fitness from the last strong cycle, could I include more speed work in the introductory phase than the plan recommends?  For instance, would it be worthwhile to build from something like 3x(4x400) to 8x1000s over the first 4 to 6 weeks of the plan just to get some speed in?

     

    I'm sorry if my question in this isn't clear enough.  If there's any extra info I can provide to make it easier to give me some guidance, please let me know.  Thanks in advance!

    PRs:  Marathon (2:49xx; '13)  Half (1:25xx; '12) 10k (40:26; '11) 5mi (29:23; '13) 5k (17:33; '13)

    Julia1971


      I'm not all that familiar with Hudson but I've loosely using his 10K program this spring/summer...

       

      I don't know that increasing speed (in this case, interval) workouts are likely to help you with marathon training.  For me, I feel like long runs, medium runs, and tempo runs have been the key...  How does Hudson structure the long runs?  Does he give much advice on how to pace it?  As you know, I'm a Pfitz fan and what I think why it works for me so well is that most of my long and medium runs are actually progression runs.  I think having that 10+ miles of close to MP running every week is good preparation for race day...  On tempo runs, I tried doing cruise intervals - which is what I would characterize that workout as - instead of long(er) tempo type runs last marathon cycle and I don't think they were as effective as straight running at comfortably hard pace...  So, I guess I'm trying to convince you to try Pfitz.  Smile

      You're too strong not to keep on keepin' on. - The Pips
      Yes, I am! - Gladys Knight

      So_Im_a_Runner


      Go figure

        Part of my Hudsonian leanings stem from the fact that I'm an injury prone runner. I think Hudson's hills really made a difference for me. I could easily tack those on the end of a Pfitz GA run. The bigger problem is that I think Pfitz just ramps up too fast for me. I attribute the quick start to the injury troubles I had when I used Daniels as well. By way of example, week two of the Pfitz 18/85 plan has 17 mi with 8 at MP. Without having built to that, I doubt I could do it and stay healthy. Hudson gets the runner there gradually by doing progressions (which are actually har segments of 5-30 minutes of hard running added to the end of runs). He also starts with fartlek runs that gradually introduce the faster paces. Maybe I am being too conservative? I just feel like maybe my idea of doing some shorter speed work would keep me healthy while building the strength I'm lacking for faster running.

         

        As far as injuries go, I've ruptured the PF in both feet and have had knee surgeries on each knee (soccer, not running related). My knees get achy, but my PF are the primary concern.

        PRs:  Marathon (2:49xx; '13)  Half (1:25xx; '12) 10k (40:26; '11) 5mi (29:23; '13) 5k (17:33; '13)

          Like Julia, I am a Pfitz fan. I don't know Hudson at all.

           

          I understand what you talked about Pfitz ramping up too fast. Without carefully executing other easy runs or speed, it is easy to get injured.

           

          I don't know if Hudson has stride and VO2Max runs or not. Perhaps you can try some of those types of runs into your training schedule. From my own experiences, after executing Tempo, VO2Max, Intervals and strides, my speed shot up in a very short period of time. At the beginning of my MP try, It was very hard and I could hardly maintain the MP for 8 miles, but after 8 weeks, I exceeded my MP for another 25 seconds per mile and ran the whole marathon.

           

          Of course, you know your own body best. I think common runner's injuries don't just suddenly happen. It is usually an accumulation. So maybe you can try some of those runs and pay attention to your body reaction. If there is a warning sign, you can always stop. Staying healthy is a priority.

           

          Good luck for whatever you choose to break 2:50.

          5k - 20:56 (09/12), 7k - 28:40 (11/12), 10k trial - 43:08  (03/13), 42:05 (05/13), FM - 3:09:28 (05/13), HM - 1:28:20 (05/14), Failed 10K trial - 6:10/mi for 4mi (08/14), FM - 3:03 (09/14)

          zonykel


            IMHO, Hudson talks about "adaptive running", but it doesn't necessarily translate into something the reader can understand easily.

             

            the book that delivers on that promise is "You (only faster)", by Greg McMillan. The beauty is that if you like Hudson's plans, you can change them based on the steps recommended by McMillan.

             

            You start off with a plan (which you already have). Then you set a goal time (which you've chosen as well).

             

            Then you go through a self-evaluation that McMillan calls "Personal Running Evaluation" or PRE.

             

            For example, the first question is "how do I respond to each type of workout as well as to my day-to-day training?". The next question deals with how you recover from training, and finally, how you adapt to training.

             

            you then go through the process of modifying your plan based on your strong and weak workouts, your mileage evaluation, how long it takes you to recover from workouts, adding tune up races, etc.

             

            a good chunk of the book is dedicated to how you modify your training plan. In fact, that's the theme of the book.

             

            I'll note that the chapters are short and to the point. They resemble the style of his articles in "Running Times" magazine (in fact, some of the material may be familiar to you if you've seen his website and read his articles).

             

            (I was planning on doing a book overview, and maybe a compare and contrast with Hudson's book, and perhaps also "road racing for serious runners". But then I realized the scope of the project, and decided to abandon it).

            Longboat


            Letting off steam

              I also like Hudson's approach.  After several years of Pfitz or similar training, during which I repeatedly came down with injuries, using (and adapting) Hudson got me to a very successful marathon, which I built on for several more.

               

              With a 2-year-old 5k PR at 6 min. pace (quite a bit faster now, I expect), you clearly have the speed to run 2:50.  Extending that speed over longer distances -- specific endurance -- is what the Hudson approach goes after (similar to Canova, his mentor).  The hard workouts (like the 3 or 4 x 10 minutes at tempo) are intended to be ball-busters, building that speed-endurance.  Each is followed by at least one day of easy running, sometimes two, and if the legs are still feeling dead, take more easy days.

               

              There is actually a build to the 2x10 min @HM-->10k pace -- e.g. the week 4 time trial (4 miles at Max), then the fartlek runs in week 5 forward (4x5min in week 6), then specific endurance intervals at 10K pace.  

               

              However, I think you're asking whether, if you're running more miles in early weeks, can you do more speedwork?  Well, maybe... Looking at the first 3 weeks, you could probably add some miles at speed in some of the easy runs, keeping the % of faster stuff in line with total miles.  But I don't recommend trying to substitute interval workout (400's particularly) for an easy run, and I'm not sure how much benefit you'd get in any case  After week 4, it would get really tough to do that.  Even runners doing 3-4 doubles and 100+ mpw do only 2-3 significant "workouts" per week.  You may be able to stay a little longer at speed in the fartleks, or include some long hills, for strength, in the progression runs.  However, I think your extra miles coming in will give better protection that you think for those brutal workouts later on.

               

              The Toledo race, as I recall, was a major breakthrough for you.  This time, you're still targeting a significant improvement, but knowing the training pattern should be a help rather than a concern.  There are cutback weeks built in to Hudson, which you should use. If you manage your mileage adds (almost all easy miles) carefully, you shouldn't worry about peaking too soon physically.  Added speedwork, more than anything, creates the risk of early peaking and over-training.   Mentally, sustaining high mileage carried in from present fitness may be more of a challenge -- again, take the cutbacks, and back off when you need rest.

              Neil

              ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

              Nearly back to 100% 6 months after Achilles surgery. Now at 35 50 mpw.

              Base building time!

                I doubt that you don't have the "speed" to run 6:30s because 6:30s are not that fast. The issue is speed endurance. Your 5k is too slow. Take the summer, run mileage, and work on racing the 5k, get it down in the low 17s. That will improve your efficiency and also give you some useful racing skills.

                 

                Choose whatever plan you like -- the issue is not the marathon plan, it's more about what skills you are trying to build.

                  I doubt that you don't have the "speed" to run 6:30s because 6:30s are not that fast. The issue is speed endurance. Your 5k is too slow. Take the summer, run mileage, and work on racing the 5k, get it down in the low 17s. That will improve your efficiency and also give you some useful racing skills.

                   

                   

                  SIAR, I thought you were going to work in the shorter stuff next.

                  Julia1971


                    Someone else's post made me realize I really didn't address your question.

                     

                     

                    Is there something I can do earlier in the plan to help me better prepare for these workouts?  I'm concerned I don't have the speed necessary to carry the 6:30 pace that a 2:50 marathon requires.  Since I have the fitness from the last strong cycle, could I include more speed work in the introductory phase than the plan recommends?  For instance, would it be worthwhile to build from something like 3x(4x400) to 8x1000s over the first 4 to 6 weeks of the plan just to get some speed in?

                     

                     

                    I recall the issue of when and how to work in speedwork when training for a marathon kinda came up in Bhearn's awesome Hanson's thread.  If you haven't, it might be worth reading that thread.

                     

                    I took a look at that training plan and maybe you could modify those fartlek workouts? I've read a couple of pages of the book and I'm not sure why he recommends them over traditional intervals.  Edited to add: I found his explanation on pages 84-85.  He doesn't seem to be a fan of a lot of heavy interval work.  But, gosh, some of those fartlek workouts scarcely look like speedwork at all IMHO.  Those first three - 30 sec to 1 min @ 10K pace - sound awful easy.

                    You're too strong not to keep on keepin' on. - The Pips
                    Yes, I am! - Gladys Knight

                    So_Im_a_Runner


                    Go figure

                      Thank you for the thoughtful responses everyone.

                       

                      DavidLiu...You guys that run Pfitz definitely have my respect.  As far as strides in Hudson, he does do have some strides/drills that he lumps together, but they don't really show up in the plan.  I'm thinking adding a day of strides after an easy run would be good for me, especially since I've never done them.  I have heard that one can make some pretty good speed gains without too long a cycle of Vo2 type work, so that's why I was wondering if it'd be worth working that in for me.

                       

                      Zonykel...You're right...it's hard to figure out what changes to really make in Hudson based on how you're feeling and doing in workouts.  Basically, he just says if you're lacking in strength, do hills, if lacking in aerobic, do miles, etc.  I'll definitely look into the McMillan book and see what I can get out of that.  Its a shame I didn't get your overview and compare/contrast section ha!

                       

                      Longboat....I agree...since I actually have the speed to run miles under what I'm seeking as MP, then it's more about specific endurance than it is speed.  I guess my concern was that I needed to work on developing that sooner than where it appears in Hudson.  Maybe the buildup is enough to get me there though, especially if my paces all increase a little relative to my fitness.  The extra miles I had added were all of the easy variety, and that's what I plan to do again.  I do like the idea of stretching some of those early fartleks and may try to include that.  Good luck with your recovery too.

                       

                      Jeff....I guess I did phrase it incorrectly - it is the speed endurance that I'm probably lacking.  That 5k ('11) is probably a worse representation of my speed than my current 5 mile time  (March '13), which was at 5:52 pace.  Still, I'm likely only in about 17:30ish shape for the 5k, and I've worried that's not enough.  The trouble with just gearing toward racing is that I lose a 20 week marathon cycle, which would have to start 6/3.  You're right about the skills though, I need to develop them.  Do you think I could just race a little more in the early stages of the plan?

                       

                      BPlus...Yep, I said that!  Then I got the calendar out and saw when marathon training should count and kinda panicked.  I'm hoping that I could get there either way.  I do think it's probably "safer," as far as injury goes, to hop into marathon training as opposed to intense speed work.  And yes, I fear injury a lot.

                       

                      Julia...Thanks for linking that thread for me.  I'll give it a read for sure.  You're right, the introductory stuff is pretty easy.  But I do have confidence in it since it got me to my sub3 healthily.  Still, that's why I was wondering if that'd be a good time to add some work, since the fartleks are pretty gentle.

                      PRs:  Marathon (2:49xx; '13)  Half (1:25xx; '12) 10k (40:26; '11) 5mi (29:23; '13) 5k (17:33; '13)

                      So_Im_a_Runner


                      Go figure

                        For those that are interested, here's an awesome link from the thread that Julia recommended. The link itself was posted by LoveTheHalf, and is Greg McMillan's take on developing speed first based on his work with coach Gabriele Rosa

                         

                        http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/time-rethink-your-marathon-training-program?page=single

                        PRs:  Marathon (2:49xx; '13)  Half (1:25xx; '12) 10k (40:26; '11) 5mi (29:23; '13) 5k (17:33; '13)

                          I read somewhere somebody said if you keep running on a slow pace, your body wouldn't adapt to a fast pace. I take that view. I also think it is all about our body adaptation. Throwing in some stress runs (LT, interval, strides, VO2max) regularly may help our body to adjust the stress and move up the LT and speed. That is why I like Pfitz's plan I think.

                          5k - 20:56 (09/12), 7k - 28:40 (11/12), 10k trial - 43:08  (03/13), 42:05 (05/13), FM - 3:09:28 (05/13), HM - 1:28:20 (05/14), Failed 10K trial - 6:10/mi for 4mi (08/14), FM - 3:03 (09/14)

                          So_Im_a_Runner


                          Go figure

                            I read somewhere somebody said if you keep running on a slow pace, your body wouldn't adapt to a fast pace. I take that view. I also think it is all about our body adaptation. Throwing in some stress runs (LT, interval, strides, VO2max) regularly may help our body to adjust the stress and move up the LT and speed. That is why I like Pfitz's plan I think.

                             

                            I definitely agree with that, and the general sentiment that to run fast, you have to run fast.  It's not that Hudson's approach doesn't do any fast running though.  It's just that it comes later in the cycle, and the primary focus is on running that's mostly at 10k pace with a smaller amount of 5k pace as well.  Basically, it's more work at tempo but a bit under lactate threshold and not approaching VO2 max.  Pfitz follows more of the speed first approach that is consistent with the McMillan article I linked, and philosophies like Daniels' as well.

                            PRs:  Marathon (2:49xx; '13)  Half (1:25xx; '12) 10k (40:26; '11) 5mi (29:23; '13) 5k (17:33; '13)

                              ...I lose a 20 week marathon cycle, which would have to start 6/3.

                               

                              A 20 week marathon cycle? Just shoot me.

                               

                              You have plenty of time to focus on 5k and 10k racing while still keeping your eye on the goal of getting ready for a marathon 20 weeks from June 3rd.

                              Runners run.

                                 

                                SIAR, I thought you were going to work in the shorter stuff next.

                                 

                                You are right. Sorry, I didn't read the original post that carefully.

                                 

                                I guess my point is that it's less about the kinds of workouts that you do and more about the attitude and goals that you bring to them.  My suggestion is that by targeting the 5k distance over the summer, he'll run a better 5k marathon in October. I wrote my thoughts about this a while back, and I still agree with them. I agree with the OP's assessment that going right into another high mileage cycle he is risking stagnation.

                                 

                                Use the fitness he's got now to see what he can do with it to become a more balanced and better all around runner before piling on the miles again. That's my advice. I know I still haven't answered the original question, but to me that's a matter of minutia and distance training is almost never a matter of minutia.

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