2012 Sub-3:00 Marathon Goal Thread (Read 6872 times)

DoppleBock


    I would challenge you to go out at "Marathon Pace"  You should know what it feels like ~ Just a little less burn than 1/2 marathon pace ...

     

    Be patient on the road section - A few rollers before you dump onto the trail.

     

    There are sections of this trail that have softball sized rocks (loose) do not zone out - kick one and break your foot.

     

    The 1st 10-12 mile of trial have sections that are pretty loose - sand or dirt ... Depending on the year, the dry or wetness and recent ATV traffic.  Just relax and find the best line you can without killing yourself or running really bad lines.

     

    When I did it @ mile #15, it became pure bliss - Hard packed trail, easy to run fast relaxed (But I had worked too hard on the loose shit to enjoy)  If you get yourself to mile #15 in good shape you will rock the last 11 miles. 

     

    Mile #8 starts the pretty decent verticle drop until Mile #22 ... Be patient until you get the hardpack - Again you will be flying down this section to mile #22 if you don't fight the loose part.

     

    Stay smooth Brotha!

     

    Looks like I'm up this weekend.  Not sure what I should consider for a goal. The last 5 weeks have not been stellar for training (family issues have been difficult...long story) so I don't feel like I'm in PR shape. Problem is it's nearly impossible for me to line up for a race and refrain from racing.  So, I'll probably go out at PR pace (6:25 or a shade faster) and either have a stellar race or epic implosion.  

     

    Either way, I'm gonna drink a whole lot of beer with friends Saturday night.  Big grin

    http://a-big-horse.blogspot.com/ 

    2013 Goals ~ Mar < 3:00, 5M < 29, 10k < 35  

     

      I'm racing NYCM next month. I'd like to go sub:3 (PR is ~3:07; PR for NYCM ~3:16. This will be my 7th NYCM).

       

      Yesterday (and 2 weeks ago) I ran very enjoyable training marathons (i.e. not a race).  Both were neg splits. Sept = 3:23, Oct = 3:22. Both felt easy, no wall, no bonk, no hunger, pushed the last few miles into low sevens, high sixes.  Lots of energy left afterwards. 

       

      My 5K race from Saturday = 18:17.

      Recent half marathon = 1:23.  A "marathon time estimator" predicts I'll race 2:56 or 2:58, but who knows if those are accurate.  

       

      I log ~60-70 miles/ week (2x weekly long runs of 12 - 15, once-a-month marathons, weekly speed work, random other runs).  I think the milage is there and has been for a few years now.  I've run around 30 marathons (10 of them this year).

       

      Suggestions on how I should pace NYCM?  

      Should I try to hit mile 9 in just a hair over an hour and keep it steady?  Should I start off around 7s and ease my way faster?  

      If I don't go sub:3 I won't be sad (I've been going for volume this year) but it sure would be nice. 

       

      Thoughts?

       

      You've run NYCM 6 times so you should know the course.

       

      1. You automatically go out slow because you have to run up a 200ft hill.

      2. Your 2nd mile will be fast because you have to run down that hill.

      3. After 2, through 12/13, only 9 is slightly up and 10 down. You should be hitting MP here maybe a tad faster (because you know what is coming up).

      4. 13-14.7ish flatish except up Pulaski. Even pace.

      5. 59th street bridge is about 3/4-1 mile long I think 150ft ish up.

       

      Hitting mile 9 @ 1 hour is 6:40/mile pace. You'd have to make up a lot after that first slow mile. I'm suspecting your first mile should be some where around 7:30....

         The way to use a Garmin in a race so that you get full benefit ...

         

        Or there is another way, not to disagree with the esteemed bhearn, of course.

         

        Leave Auto Lap on, because, if you are like me, you will inevitably miss a mile marker here or there, and then, oh crap, you have to wait to hopefully get a 2-mile split at the next one.  As Bob says, though, your Garmin will generally read LONG, so the beep will go off typically a little before the mile markers (assuming they are placed correctly -- which also is not always the case).  So what I do is then register a manual lap about every 5th mile or so to sort of reconcile everything.  Yes, this means I have to do maybe a teensy weensy bit of mental math because that extra 20 seconds I just tacked onto the first 5 miles means tacking on an extra 4 seconds/mile....  But honestly, I kinda like the mental math.  It gives me something to do.  Smile  Anyway, for me it solves the problem of missing mile markers altogether and yet I'm still correcting the Auto Lap error every so often so I don't have the Garmin telling me I'm at mile 26 when there are still 700m to go.

        - Joe

        all running goals are under review by the executive committee.


        I'm back!

          But honestly, I kinda like the mental math.  It gives me something to do.  Smile  

           

          Absolutely, I'm with you there. Which is why I check my splits every mile, when others are more laid back. The more math I can focus on doing in my head, the more the running just happens. Towards the end of a marathon, as I start piling up cushion in the last few miles if I'm feeling good, I start working out what pace I'll need to just hit my goal, in case something goes wrong. It's reassuring to see that number creep up.

           

          And yep, there are a million ways to skin the pacing cat. I am just shocked when I hear people talk about missing their goal because the Garmin lied. You didn't think to check splits anywhere?? Admittedly, markers can be off, and in short races this can be a real issue. 

          J2R


            Garmin inaccuracies should *never* cause anyone to miss their goal time. If you do, you're not using your Garmin right. You can't just try to maintain a desired average pace, or assume that the total mileage on your Garmin will be 26.2.

             

             

             

            Well, I'm not sure about not using the Garmin right. Whichever way you use it (cumulative average pace or manually entered splits), you still have to reckon with the fact that consumer level GPS is not 100% accurate (it's done by 'joining the dots' and applying a smoothing algorithm, and any of those dots may be up to 10 metres out). Also, one tends to 'weave' a little, not following the absolute shortest route in any race. My experience has been that my GPS watch tends to underestimate distance, sometimes by up to 1%. Consequently I work out the pace required to go the distance plus 1% in the target time. For a sub-3 marathon, that means 6:48 (for a total of 26.48 miles), so I'll not be wanting my total average pace to be reading slower than 6:47 as I get towards the end.

             

            I do tend to try to mentally 'recalibrate' by checking time at the actual mile markers occasionally, to see if I am over or under-reading. But late on in a marathon my brain turns to a kind of mush, rendering me incapable of even the simplest mental arithmetic, hence the need for simple numbers to follow. (Besides, the marathon I'm doing is in Germany and the route will be marked in kilometres instead. I could, of course, set my watch to metric, but I'm so used to thinking in minutes per mile that I think this would throw me).

             

            Admittedly, markers can be off, and in short races this can be a real issue.

             

            I actually ran into this a couple of years ago, when I was first trying to break 1:05 for 10 miles. I was running a local race, and, unusually, I decided to ignore what my GPS watch was telling me and just go on the mile markers, as the mental arithmetic was trivial. At the mile 9 marker, I was coasting, and realized that all I had to do was maintain pace, maybe even slacken off a tad, and sub-1:05 was mine. Unfortunately, the last 'mile' turned out to be 1.2 miles...


            Alive & Running

              I would challenge you to go out at "Marathon Pace"  You should know what it feels like ~ Just a little less burn than 1/2 marathon pace ...

               

              Be patient on the road section - A few rollers before you dump onto the trail.

               

              There are sections of this trail that have softball sized rocks (loose) do not zone out - kick one and break your foot.

               

              The 1st 10-12 mile of trial have sections that are pretty loose - sand or dirt ... Depending on the year, the dry or wetness and recent ATV traffic.  Just relax and find the best line you can without killing yourself or running really bad lines.

               

              When I did it @ mile #15, it became pure bliss - Hard packed trail, easy to run fast relaxed (But I had worked too hard on the loose shit to enjoy)  If you get yourself to mile #15 in good shape you will rock the last 11 miles. 

               

              Mile #8 starts the pretty decent verticle drop until Mile #22 ... Be patient until you get the hardpack - Again you will be flying down this section to mile #22 if you don't fight the loose part.

               

              Stay smooth Brotha!

               

              Thanks man.  Last night I was thinking of going out at ~6:20 and seeing how things go.  If that pace early one feels like too much effort I'll back off and just take what the legs give me (but still work hard..gotta at least go sub-3:00 at this one).  

               

              I ran this one for my first marathon in 2008 and again in 2009 (just for "fun" as I'd gone sub-3:00 for the first time at TCM 6 days prior).  You're not kidding about the rocks.  In 2009 I saw someone totally nail a rock and go down.  Stopped to see if he needed help, but he got back up and started running.  Sure did look bad though.

               

              Looking forward to going back to where it all began 4 years ago.  The race is well organized and volunteers are great.  I love small town races so much more than the big ones.

               



              Was it all a dream?

                 

                Suggestions on how I should pace NYCM?  

                Should I try to hit mile 9 in just a hair over an hour and keep it steady?  Should I start off around 7s and ease my way faster?  

                If I don't go sub:3 I won't be sad (I've been going for volume this year) but it sure would be nice. 

                 

                Thoughts?

                 

                As mentioned by others, the first mile will be slow (but doesn't need to be way off pace).  Don't do anything crazy during mile 2, just enjoy the downhill on fresh legs.  I wouldn't suggest progressing to goal pace, as you don't want to have to make up time during the climb to central park late in the race.  You'll likely lose a few seconds on the miles climbing over the middle mile bridges, but I think running as even as possible throughout is the way to go.

                 

                Also, try to not run your fastest mile when you hit the crowds coming off the Queensboro bridge.  Though I think I'm 0-3 in following that advice myself Wink

                I'm in the business of misery...

                  My experience has been that my GPS watch tends to underestimate distance, sometimes by up to 1%. Consequently I work out the pace required to go the distance plus 1% in the target time. For a sub-3 marathon, that means 6:48 (for a total of 26.48 miles)

                   

                  You mean overestimate the distance?  Yes, that is exactly what bhearn and I were saying.  GPS watches, for one major manufacturer with which I am quite familiar at least, tend to overestimate distance by about 0.7% on average (when once studied recently for quite a large number of samples on a certified course).  So your approach of making an adjustment by 1% is just about perfect.

                  - Joe

                  all running goals are under review by the executive committee.


                  Was it all a dream?

                    Looks like I'm up this weekend.  Not sure what I should consider for a goal. The last 5 weeks have not been stellar for training (family issues have been difficult...long story) so I don't feel like I'm in PR shape. Problem is it's nearly impossible for me to line up for a race and refrain from racing.  So, I'll probably go out at PR pace (6:25 or a shade faster) and either have a stellar race or epic implosion.  

                     

                    Either way, I'm gonna drink a whole lot of beer with friends Saturday night.  Big grin

                     

                    Don, definitely go after the PR.  You ran 6:15's in a steady effort 25k a few weeks ago (and after a rough week).  6:20-6:25/mi for the marathon seems quite reasonable.  The "bumps" in training over the past 5 weeks may have actually helped your body absorb all the volume you've put in this year.

                    I'm in the business of misery...

                    J2R


                      You mean overestimate the distance?  Yes, that is exactly what bhearn and I were saying.  GPS watches, for one major manufacturer with which I am quite familiar at least, tend to overestimate distance by about 0.7% on average (when once studied recently for quite a large number of samples on a certified course).  So your approach of making an adjustment by 1% is just about perfect.

                       

                      Yes, sorry, I did mean overestimate - it tells you you've gone further than you have, and thus exaggerates the pace. That 6:49 you're happily running at may turn out to have been 6:53 in reality - whoops!

                       

                      My GPS watch is a GH625 from GlobalSat, probably not the major manufacturer you're referring to. But it has the same chipset as many others (SirfStar III) and has the same kind of algorithms. The faster you go, of course, the more accurate the device is, as the effect of that possible 10 metre margin of error is diluted by the greater distance between the trackpoints, so once I start to achieve world-record breaking times, I should be able to trust it a little more. Smile

                      spinach


                        As mentioned by others, the first mile will be slow (but doesn't need to be way off pace).  Don't do anything crazy during mile 2, just enjoy the downhill on fresh legs.

                         

                        You also don't want to do anything crazy in mile 1.  I know because I did.   I ran New York back in 1976, the first year it went all five boroughs.  Right after the start I saw Frank Shorter about ten yards ahead of me.  Since I was to dumb college kid, I sprinted out to get ahead of him briefly.  It took me about a half mile to catch him and doing the first half mile at about a 5 minute mile pace wasn't a good idea for someone who was hoping for a 3:45 or 4:00 time.  Don't do something stupid like that. 

                        spinach


                          I failed miserably in trying to do a sub-3:00 at Wobegon this spring but I think the hamstring problem I had there is in the past.  I will be running Mankato in a couple weeks but I don't think I am in shape to try for a sub three there.  I will be hoping for around a 3:10 or 3:15, if I can stay healthy, and will try for a sub three sometime in the spring. 


                          Alive & Running

                            Don, definitely go after the PR.  You ran 6:15's in a steady effort 25k a few weeks ago (and after a rough week).  6:20-6:25/mi for the marathon seems quite reasonable.  The "bumps" in training over the past 5 weeks may have actually helped your body absorb all the volume you've put in this year.

                             

                            Thanks Ben. I'm gonna go for it (not that I'd have been able to refrain anyway, but it's nice to hear that others have confidence that I'm not out of my fucking mind for contemplating another run at 2:44).

                             



                            ultramarathon/triathlete

                              You also don't want to do anything crazy in mile 1.  I know because I did.   I ran New York back in 1976, the first year it went all five boroughs.  Right after the start I saw Frank Shorter about ten yards ahead of me.  Since I was to dumb college kid, I sprinted out to get ahead of him briefly.  It took me about a half mile to catch him and doing the first half mile at about a 5 minute mile pace wasn't a good idea for someone who was hoping for a 3:45 or 4:00 time.  Don't do something stupid like that. 

                               

                              Ha, if I saw someone like Frank Shorter, I'd say screw my race, I'm going to run with him as long as I can.  Even if it's just two or three minutes. 

                              HTFU?  Why not!

                              Coach: Empire Tri Club 

                              Speed Coach: Brooklyn Tri Club

                                I need to be taken of the list.   In fact, I should probably just not put myself on the list in the future....

                                 

                                Got promoted at work and marathon training has been the furthest thing from my mind the last three months.