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The LONG RUN Thread (Read 1759 times)

    Training increases the pace you can run at a given effort level (heart rate) and so also reduces the effort required to run x pace. So you can run faster while still staying in the low aerobic range, or run farther at a certain pace. I don't think training increases the amount of glycogen you can store. I'm no ultra runner but I imagine those nutjobs (said with affection) avoid bonking the same way marathoners do--by managing their pace and fueling on the course.

    Runners run.

      I agree -- I don't think training increases the amount of glycogen you store. But, training at the right HR can help teach your body to generate a greater % of it's energy from fat mobilization, which is more efficient due to more calories per gram than carbs. Addressing the long run/long time question from my experience: I never ran more than 3 hours before my marathons. However, I do like to bike, and my body was used to sustained efforts of well over 3 hours at a time. I think a great way to marathon train is alternating long runs (up to 3 hours) with long bikes (up to the goal marathon time) each week. For long run pace, I usually do about 60 seconds over MP on average -- usually start out slower and then do the last quarter of the run at MP + 35-45 seconds.
        I use a HRM, if you do, do you run your long run at a different HR then your reqular training run? I understand the purpose of the long run, but I would like to see all my runs at a min. of 1 hour each. Other than conditioning, is there any reason not to do so, or to make it a goal, or is it just a waste of time? It would seem to me that this would, or should be the maintance goal. Say 5 hrs a week, 5 days a week. Whatever the milage. Now then if one was to do this what happens to the long run? I guess what I am getting at is if some one doesn't want to allways train for a Marathon, but for good conditioning, for the fun in running, and to have a good base to do whatever, when ever, what is the maintance schedual?
        Age is not an illusion


        You'll ruin your knees!

          Training increases the pace you can run at a given effort level (heart rate) and so also reduces the effort required to run x pace. So you can run faster while still staying in the low aerobic range, or run farther at a certain pace. I don't think training increases the amount of glycogen you can store. I'm no ultra runner but I imagine those nutjobs (said with affection) avoid bonking the same way marathoners do--by managing their pace and fueling on the course.
          ...managing your pace - often the terrain does that for you! ...fueling on the course - OH YEAH, Baby! That's what I'm talkin' about! Lynn B

          ""...the truth that someday, you will go for your last run. But not today—today you got to run." - Matt Crownover (after Western States)


          You'll ruin your knees!

            I use a HRM, if you do, do you run your long run at a different HR then your reqular training run? I understand the purpose of the long run, but I would like to see all my runs at a min. of 1 hour each. Other than conditioning, is there any reason not to do so, or to make it a goal, or is it just a waste of time? It would seem to me that this would, or should be the maintance goal. Say 5 hrs a week, 5 days a week. Whatever the milage. Now then if one was to do this what happens to the long run? I guess what I am getting at is if some one doesn't want to allways train for a Marathon, but for good conditioning, for the fun in running, and to have a good base to do whatever, when ever, what is the maintance schedual?
            Sometimes, it's OK just to run because you like it! For example, I try and stay current on the lunar calendar, for example, as I love running under a full or bright moon. I planned this week very carefully for a long run last night...moonrise was at 7:50 pm, so I planned to hook up with a buddy and start a long run at 6 pm (after work). We ran until well after midnight, never using a light. It was a GREAT night! I might look for a way to get out again for a shorter jaunt tonight, not sure the schedule will allow it. Take care, Lynn B

            ""...the truth that someday, you will go for your last run. But not today—today you got to run." - Matt Crownover (after Western States)

              I'm going to have to reread this entire thread...too much good information! My very minimal experience... I did Hal's Intermediate 1 Marathon training guide. I followed it to a *T*. Except for long runs. I just can't bring myself to slow down a minute per mile...I tried but mentally, I just couldn't do it. As it was, I finished my first marathon at 3:48:54 , I'm 36. My slowest mile was mile 26 at a 9:12 pace. But I did feel like I hit the wall at about mile 24. I did 2, 20 mile training runs. I can't help but think if I could slow down for my long runs like I'm supposed to, I'd do better? I dunno. I have a hard time slowing myself down. Maybe I should find a running partner? I did a hm in August and beat my previous time by 6minutes so all in all I am getting faster.
              Jennifer mm#1231
              Scout7


              CPT Curmudgeon

                I use a HRM, if you do, do you run your long run at a different HR then your reqular training run? I understand the purpose of the long run, but I would like to see all my runs at a min. of 1 hour each. Other than conditioning, is there any reason not to do so, or to make it a goal, or is it just a waste of time? It would seem to me that this would, or should be the maintance goal. Say 5 hrs a week, 5 days a week. Whatever the milage. Now then if one was to do this what happens to the long run? I guess what I am getting at is if some one doesn't want to allways train for a Marathon, but for good conditioning, for the fun in running, and to have a good base to do whatever, when ever, what is the maintance schedual?
                A) Yes, generally speaking you should. B) Ultimately, I guess it would depend on your goals. If you're prepping for something, then you should have shorter, easy days, mid-range, tougher days, and long days at an easier pace. Or, you could have a target pace you train at, as well. There's as many training regimes out there as there are trainers. Regardless of the goal, I don't know that I'd want to go out and run for an hour 5 days a week. I'd burn myself out. But again, that's me, your mileage may vary.
                  Lots of good stuff here. Great thread!
                  I did Hal's Intermediate 1 Marathon training guide. I followed it to a *T*. Except for long runs. I just can't bring myself to slow down a minute per mile...I tried but mentally, I just couldn't do it. As it was, I finished my first marathon at 3:48:54 , I'm 36. My slowest mile was mile 26 at a 9:12 pace. But I did feel like I hit the wall at about mile 24. I did 2, 20 mile training runs. I can't help but think if I could slow down for my long runs like I'm supposed to, I'd do better? I dunno. I have a hard time slowing myself down. Maybe I should find a running partner? I did a hm in August and beat my previous time by 6minutes so all in all I am getting faster.
                  If you're getting faster ... well, if it ain't broke, don't fix it, right? That said, you might try listening to Higdon for the next marathon. Doing the long runs at a minute or more slower. I kind of suspect that if you did, you'd see mile 26 be faster rather than the slowest mile. Worth a shot, anyway. If it works, let me know.
                  I use a HRM, if you do, do you run your long run at a different HR then your reqular training run? I understand the purpose of the long run, but I would like to see all my runs at a min. of 1 hour each. Other than conditioning, is there any reason not to do so, or to make it a goal, or is it just a waste of time? It would seem to me that this would, or should be the maintance goal. Say 5 hrs a week, 5 days a week. Whatever the milage. Now then if one was to do this what happens to the long run? I guess what I am getting at is if some one doesn't want to allways train for a Marathon, but for good conditioning, for the fun in running, and to have a good base to do whatever, when ever, what is the maintance schedual?
                  Nothing wrong with that schedule if you just want to maintain fitness - and to run because you love it. I'd think the only problem with it would be that at some point, you'd reach a plateau and just stay there without improving. Stress + rest = improvement. So the regular speedwork or strides or fatlek or long run stresses your system - and then you recover better and stronger. Like lifting weights. If I didn't add more reps or more weight, eventually I'd stop getting stronger or fitter. You wouldn't have to change things much. Or change mileage. Maybe cut out one run a week, and then run long every other weekend? Maybe do a little speedwork on the non-long run weekends?
                  E-mail: JakeKnight2002@aol.com
                  -----------------------------

                    JakeKnight and Scout7, Yes I see where you are comming from. Right now it seems that the long run is hurting me. I've run 6 miles twice now and both times I felt good after the run but a couple of days later I am hurting. I seem to be able to do 4 and 5 miles without problems. My thinking is to be more consistant in distance. Run 5 days a week, run 3 and 4 mile runs and increase 1 mile a week untill each day is 4 miles, then up one day to 5 miles, and increase untill each day is 5 miles. etc. This 30 to 40% rule on the long run seems a bit much to me. The problem may stem from the fact that I've been running on a TM for a year, so aerobicly I can run the distance, but physicaly my body can't take it on the road.( nothing to slow me down, but pain, being that I am not out of breath etc.) It could also be because of my age ( 58) that it takes a longer recovery time. I am trying to come up with a solution that will get me to that 60 mins a day that I want with out killing myself.
                    Age is not an illusion
                      Joe - something you might want to consider if you really want to include a long run is taking *2* days off after it instead of the one that you've been doing. Everybody's body is different, and rumor has it that we need longer to recover from stresses like the long run as we get older. Alternately, you might want to make your long run only every other week. I think that got mentioned somewhere in this thread earlier. You're moving off the TM and onto the roads? You may want to mix & match TM and roads for a while - not suddenly running 100% on the roads - in order to give your body a chance to adjust. Even young whippersnappers should do this! Big grin Good luck, and happy running!

                      Roads were made for journeys...

                      Scout7


                      CPT Curmudgeon

                        JakeKnight and Scout7, Yes I see where you are comming from. Right now it seems that the long run is hurting me. I've run 6 miles twice now and both times I felt good after the run but a couple of days later I am hurting. I seem to be able to do 4 and 5 miles without problems. My thinking is to be more consistant in distance. Run 5 days a week, run 3 and 4 mile runs and increase 1 mile a week untill each day is 4 miles, then up one day to 5 miles, and increase untill each day is 5 miles. etc. This 30 to 40% rule on the long run seems a bit much to me. The problem may stem from the fact that I've been running on a TM for a year, so aerobicly I can run the distance, but physicaly my body can't take it on the road.( nothing to slow me down, but pain, being that I am not out of breath etc.) It could also be because of my age ( 58) that it takes a longer recovery time. I am trying to come up with a solution that will get me to that 60 mins a day that I want with out killing myself.
                        The treadmill could have at least something to do with it, partly because it's generally considered easier to run on one vs. running road. Like jake said, variety is key here. I would propose doing 2 shorter runs, say 2-3 miles, 2 mid-distance runs of 4-5, and one long run of 6+ a week. Or, as an alternative, you could do the long runs on alternating weeks, and do a speed workout on the other weeks. You use a HRM, so I would do the longer runs in Z1 / low Z2, the short distance either the same as the longer runs or a little more intense, but not leaving Z2, and the mid-distance between a high Z2 and a low Z3. Of course, if you just want to focus on building base, I would drop the speed workouts and do maybe some tempo runs. Also, I wouldn't do any run above Z2. Numbers are just there as a guide, no need to follow them religiously. Also, I don't use a HRM personally, but have trained with those who do, and read about it, so the Zone stuff is not really mine. If anyone has any thoughts on what I wrote, feel free to comment / adjust.
                          There's nothing wrong with running 5 days a week, 1 hour each. If your primary goal is general fitness, this will certainly do the trick. There is no need to do long runs, especially if they beat you up. Back in the 80's Alberto Salazar did no long runs in his build up for winning the New York City marathon. If did 5 1 hour runs a week, every week, for a year, you would improve your aerobic base a LOT and therefor your race times at every distance. The key is consistency over the long term. Find a level you can train at consistently without breaking down and do that for a long time.

                          Runners run.

                            I agree with mikeymike. Long runs are great, but if they are beating you up, then try something else. Also, lifesabeach, Jake makes some good points, but I doubt that going slower on your long runs will lead to improvement. If it does, it will only be because you spend more time on your feet, not because you are running slower. So, if you are feeling good, stay out longer or run farther, but don't slow down. If you are a very experienced runner, then it is important not to run your long runs too fast, but if you are still getting a feel for what your body can handle, then let 'er rip in the late stages of a long run, particularly if there are no ill effects on the rest of your training cycle. Maybe, just maybe, you bonked in the last miles of your marathon because you started out too slow and spent too much time out on the course. Looking at your log, this seems like a real possibility. I'll end with a platitude. Training programs are great places to begin thinking about your training, but in the end you need to experiment. Running is an art--listen to your body; do what feels good and what makes you faster. Good luck to all!
                              The way I am looking at things now is: Most of these training scheduals have if you been running 20-25 miles a week for a year start here, if less start here. The trouble is it is the same formula, 30-40% of of your weekly milage is the long run. To me that is the same as asking a person who runs a 12min mile to run one run per week at a 9 min mile. It ain't going to happen, the conditioning isn't there. Now some may suggest to cut back on the other runs to make one long run, but that would like slowing down the 12min/mile runs so one could run a 9min/mile run. Makes no sense to me. Besides it would cut down the time spent running the rest of the days, thus cutting down on the aeroboc training on those days I think now that they are probably correct in one sense, that is the base should be 25 miles per week for a year, before starting a training program for a Marathon or what ever. Besides the aerobic conditioning, the body needs to build the muscle and and bone mass to handle the pounding. While I have been running the distance on the TM, it has in no way perpared my body for the pounding it has to take on the road.
                              Age is not an illusion
                                Joe - something you might want to consider if you really want to include a long run is taking *2* days off after it instead of the one that you've been doing. Everybody's body is different, and rumor has it that we need longer to recover from stresses like the long run as we get older. Alternately, you might want to make your long run only every other week. I think that got mentioned somewhere in this thread earlier. You're moving off the TM and onto the roads? You may want to mix & match TM and roads for a while - not suddenly running 100% on the roads - in order to give your body a chance to adjust. Even young whippersnappers should do this! Big grin Good luck, and happy running!
                                Wingz I have been considering that too. I am looking at all options. Those rumors are pesky though aren't they?
                                Age is not an illusion
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