Forums >Running 101>10K under 50 minutes... Please help
I must admit, I skipped what seems to be the relevant course here, Aristotelian physics. Perhaps you could enlighten us on the true nature of momentum, I mean, "monentum". While you are at it, explain to me how it's even possible to run 10k at one time, when first you have to go halfway, but to do that you first have to go halfway to halfway, etc., so how can you even move at all?! OK, I agree now, treadmill "running" is not at all the same as running while actually moving, because the latter is clearly impossible.
I must admit, I skipped what seems to be the relevant course here, Aristotelian physics. Perhaps you could enlighten us on the true nature of momentum, I mean, "monentum". While you are at it, explain to me how it's even possible to run 10k at one time, when first you have to go halfway, but to do that you first have to go halfway to halfway, etc., so how can you even move at all?!
OK, I agree now, treadmill "running" is not at all the same as running while actually moving, because the latter is clearly impossible.
Bob, good point. I think this indicates that all running is on a treadmill, because, as Zeno indicated, it is impossible to move anywhere. So although I thought I had never run on a treadmill, it turns out that i have never gotten anywhere while I was running , and I must have been stuck on a treadmill whenever I thought I was out running.
it seems being mis-quoted, or quoted out of context happens all to often in this forum.
Add being being butt-hurt to the list.
When it’s all said and done, will you have said more than you’ve done?
I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree.
You’re entitled to your own opinions. You’re not entitled to your own facts.
The process is the goal.
Men heap together the mistakes of their lives, and create a monster they call Destiny.
not bad for mile 25
Latent Runner
So far at least, nothing in this thread has been fact on either side, just opinion. My statements are based upon empirical evidence from my own experiences and from those I coach, others have offered their opinions (even state them as facts) which are contrary to my observations. Which is correct, I'll stand by my considerable observations; y'all are welcome to drink from whichever kool-aid cup you choose.
Fat old man PRs:
As for treadmill workouts, I'll be the first to admit that they are the closest thing to running (from a workout and body preparation perspective) without actually running. That said, take two "beginner" runners capable of running a 10-minute pace, one having run a given number of miles on roads or trails, and the other the same number of miles at exclusively on a treadmill. Now take both runners and have them run a 10K road race (on a relatively straight and flat course); the treadmill runner will lose to the outdoor runner nine times out of ten.
To be fair, I think by the 5th race the treadmill runner will have enough road racing experience to have closed the gap. No way road runner wins 9 of 10. I say 6 of 10 at best. Though, it depends on their recovery. And how far apart the races are. Is this in November?
Come all you no-hopers, you jokers and roguesWe're on the road to nowhere, let's find out where it goes
Apparently you got an "EF" in physics 101; EF = Epic Fail. As for treadmill workouts, I'll be the first to admit that they are the closest thing to running (from a workout and body preparation perspective) without actually running. That said, take two "beginner" runners capable of running a 10-minute pace, one having run a given number of miles on roads or trails, and the other the same number of miles at exclusively on a treadmill. Now take both runners and have them run a 10K road race (on a relatively straight and flat course); the treadmill runner will lose to the outdoor runner nine times out of ten. Why? Physics. The body of the treadmill person is simply not conditioned to endure the dynamics of "running" with the added elements of monentum and relatively irregular surfaces. Throw in curves and hills and corners and the need to navigate around other runners and such, and the advantage to the outdoor runner becomes even greater. Are there exceptions to the rule? Yes, there are exceptions to every rule.
Apparently you got an "EF" in physics 101; EF = Epic Fail.
As for treadmill workouts, I'll be the first to admit that they are the closest thing to running (from a workout and body preparation perspective) without actually running. That said, take two "beginner" runners capable of running a 10-minute pace, one having run a given number of miles on roads or trails, and the other the same number of miles at exclusively on a treadmill. Now take both runners and have them run a 10K road race (on a relatively straight and flat course); the treadmill runner will lose to the outdoor runner nine times out of ten. Why? Physics. The body of the treadmill person is simply not conditioned to endure the dynamics of "running" with the added elements of monentum and relatively irregular surfaces. Throw in curves and hills and corners and the need to navigate around other runners and such, and the advantage to the outdoor runner becomes even greater.
Are there exceptions to the rule? Yes, there are exceptions to every rule.
What do you mean "w/out actually running?" What do you call it?
I originally ignored this thread because the title didn't interest me, but I'm glad I clicked on it. Shippo you're making some pretty bold, yet foolish, claims. Stop while you can.
Just to make it crystal-clear what we are arguing about here, there are really two positions you are taking. One of them -- that treadmill training is inferior to road/trail training -- is subject to debate and empirical evidence. There do seem to be plenty of accomplished runners who do a lot of treadmill running. OTOH I wouldn't disagree with you that road/trail running develops different muscles and skills, that can be useful for racing. Besides which, running on a treadmill just plain sucks.
But the second thing you are saying, that treadmill running is inherently different because you are not moving, is not subject to debate. That's what we are all making fun of you for. You might want to read up on a little thing called Galilean relativity.
If a person is running outside in a primarily westwardly direction, aren't they just running on a really big treadmill?
Yes, but only if they are running about 1,000 mph.
Okay, I'll offer up some empirical evidence too, my son.
Between his FR XC season and the start of indoor track, he ran on his own and because it's nearly impossible to do quality running in the midwest winter, he did nearly all of his runs, including all of his quality sessions on our home TM. This was basically a 2.5 month stretch. In his first indoor meet, on very little road/track running, he chopped off about 40s from his 3200m PR and another 10s from his 1600m PR. And, his 1600m time was faster than the max speed of our TM. How did that compare to his teammates? Well, none of his teammates improved over the same period, and most of them went backwards.
I'll go one step further and say that at times the TM offers advantages over run/track running. You can control the pace of each and every workout and effectively to the optimal speeds/efforts. You can ensure your easy days are easy, and your hard days are just th e right speed for your current fitness level. Most have a hard time doing that running outside.
Let me see if I got this correct; your son improved by running indoors on a treadmill while his peers either didn't improve or regressed because they did less/no training (that is assumed from your "nearly impossible" statement) outside. I don't see how the comparison is relavant. When the option is, don't run, or run indoor on a treadmill, then I agree, the treadmill runner will win every time.
Not apples to apples.
When the option is, don't run, or run indoor on a treadmill, then I agree, the treadmill runner will win every time.
Right. That's because running on a treadmill is running.
Runners run
Ka--ZING!
If Lt. Kendrick gave an order that Santiago wasn't to be touched, then why did he have to be transferred?