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Question about Marathons, the wall, and the pace that gets you there. (Read 1290 times)

xor


    I was just responding to the string "Gus" because it is hard to pluralize Gu. Although I tend to put random things in threads a lot, I apologize for hijacking this away from FR's original ask, because it is good. I still suggest to FR that perhaps the pace used in the earlier 18 miler was a good pace and to try that one again on a 20 miler. See what happens.

     


    Dave

      I'm confused. Does anybody think the OP is running AT or NEAR his LT pace? For 16 miles?
      No, I think he's outrunning his fitness over the longer distance. For me, when that happens, my HR gradually increases to where I am running near, at, and finally over my LT HR. After which I crash like drunk driver on a NASCAR track. Fueling better helps but can only do so much. I had 5 gu's (not dachsunds) over the course of my major bonk effort and it didn't help.

      I ran a mile and I liked it, liked it, liked it.

      dgb2n@yahoo.com


      Why is it sideways?

        protoplasm72


          Your log doesn't look like you are marathon training so it's not surprising you are under trained for distance. Most of your daily runs are split into morning and afternoon runs. 3 miles in the morning and 4 in the afternoon does not equal one 7 miler. 7:30 might feel easy for 4 miles but 16+ miles is a different animal (not gus either). I'd resist the the urge to test yourself with a near marathon distance run. It's just going to make whatever injury you are fighting worse. You have enough info and time to figure out a proper pace. This week I would try an 18-20 miler @ 7:45 - 8:00 pace and see how you feel. If you can't easily finish the last mile around 7:00 then it's still to fast. The last 2 long runs before the marathon should be something around 15 and 10 miles. If your knee is not getting better I would cut those last to long runs even shorter.

          Son, when you participate in sporting events, it's not whether you win or lose; it's how drunk you get. -- Homer Simpson


          Dave

            Ugh.
            My understanding of lactate threshold and heart rate tracks very close to the answer in this link: http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0141.htm It comes from Britain so it must be accurate. Excerpt below.
            While many athletic-minded people think that lactate threshold coincides with about 90 per cent of maximal heart rate, the truth is that it varies tremendously from person to person, and of course it also varies according to your fitness level. If you're a real stud, your LTHR (lactate-threshold heart rate) might actually be at 95 per cent of MHR; if you're a beginner, it could be at 65 to 70 per cent. If you're neither, LTHR could be nearly anywhere, depending on your previous training, overall fitness, and individual characteristics. Even among people of similar ability levels, LTHR roams all over the map. For example, if we examined a group of runners, all of whom are able to finish the 10K in 40 minutes flat, some of those individuals would reach their LTHR at 80 per cent of MHR. Others would be at 85, some would arrive at LTHR at 90 per cent, and - of course - the rest would be somewhere in between (or perhaps even below 80).

            I ran a mile and I liked it, liked it, liked it.

            dgb2n@yahoo.com


            Why is it sideways?

              My understanding of lactate threshold and heart rate tracks very close to the answer in this link: http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0141.htm
              Yeah, I agree with the answer given in that article. He says that not only is no such thing as LTHR, if there were it would be completely irrelevant to training.
              AmoresPerros


              Options,Account, Forums

                If I was in a group of runners, all of whom are able to finish the 10K in 40 minutes flat, then I wouldn't care what any of the rest of you think.
                Me too.

                It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.


                On My Horse

                  Your log doesn't look like you are marathon training so it's not surprising you are under trained for distance. Most of your daily runs are split into morning and afternoon runs. 3 miles in the morning and 4 in the afternoon does not equal one 7 miler. 7:30 might feel easy for 4 miles but 16+ miles is a different animal (not gus either). I'd resist the the urge to test yourself with a near marathon distance run. It's just going to make whatever injury you are fighting worse. You have enough info and time to figure out a proper pace. This week I would try an 18-20 miler @ 7:45 - 8:00 pace and see how you feel. If you can't easily finish the last mile around 7:00 then it's still to fast. The last 2 long runs before the marathon should be something around 15 and 10 miles. If your knee is not getting better I would cut those last to long runs even shorter.
                  Ya, I'm doing track/am lazy/got a little knicked up, so I've been doing most of my mileage in lump sums (I've got a thread about this on the general board somewhere) It is very very frustrating, because I was ready to hit 60 mile for a week for the first time ever when I got hurt, and it is even more frustrating that it wasn't bad enough to make me take a week off (I do extremes, I don't like only kind of training, it seems to unfocused) That is all besides the point though, I can't really do much at this point to increase my fitness for the marathon, I can just try to prepare. What I've got is 1. Buy some GUs 2. Run slower. I'll do those things, and I hope they work out. What was my basic misunderstanding that this thread has addressed was the role fat burning plays in running at slower paces. I hate to see myself running 8:00 pace or slower on the watch, I just feel like I can do better. I guess I kind of have to face the fact that for now, I can't. Thanks to everyone who has posted, and I welcome any more contributions.

                  "What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies with in us." - Ralph Waldo Emerson


                  Dave

                    Yeah, I agree with the answer given in that article. He says that not only is no such thing as LTHR, if there were it would be completely irrelevant to training.
                    That's not really what the article said. My read was that LTHR exists for every runner on every run, its just not really knowable what that number is because there are so many variables (fitness, weather, etc.). It is irrelevant to try and figure out a number and train to it though. I probably should have been more specific in my post. I have no idea what my LTHR is for any given run or race. But I generally know when I've reached it because I crash sometime thereafter. In general, if I'm able to sustain a pace without a gradual increase in my HR, I'm pretty safely under LTHR. If it keeps climbing, I'm generally headed for trouble.

                    I ran a mile and I liked it, liked it, liked it.

                    dgb2n@yahoo.com

                    Trent


                    Good Bad & The Monkey

                      What I've got is 1. Buy some GUs 2. Run slower. 3. Run more.
                      Fixed.


                      Why is it sideways?

                        That's not really what the article said. My read was that LTHR exists for every runner on every run, its just not really knowable what that number is because there are so many variables (fitness, weather, etc.). It is irrelevant to try and figure out a number and train to it though. I probably should have been more specific in my post. I have no idea what my LTHR is for any given run or race. But I generally know when I've reached it because I crash sometime thereafter. In general, if I'm able to sustain a pace without a gradual increase in my HR, I'm pretty safely under LTHR. If it keeps climbing, I'm generally headed for trouble.
                        So, for you LTHR means simply "the point at which I fall apart." I guess I'm just not that into quantities that exist but are not knowable. Must be the philosopher in me.


                        Dave

                          I guess I'm just not that into quantities that exist but are not knowable. Must be the philosopher in me.
                          This is starting to sound like a discussion of religion.

                          I ran a mile and I liked it, liked it, liked it.

                          dgb2n@yahoo.com


                          The shirtless wonder

                            . I hate to see myself running 8:00 pace or slower on the watch, I just feel like I can do better. I guess I kind of have to face the fact that for now, I can't.
                            What if you either left your watch at home or didn't look at it? If you are really tempted to look at your watch cover it with electrical tape or something. Looking at my watch pretty much always has a bad result for me. If I'm going slower than I thought I get disappointed or try to speed up. If it says I'm going faster than expected then I speed up even more. The end result is that I don't run as well as if I just ran by feel. The best part is when you finish a run and look at your watch in amazement because you thought you were going much slower than you actually ran. I'm not recommending this for your race, just for training. When I'm racing I look at my watch every single mile.


                            Prince of Fatness

                              I hate to see myself running 8:00 pace or slower on the watch, I just feel like I can do better.
                              Try going out without the watch.

                              Not at it at all. 


                              Prince of Fatness

                                I'm not recommending this for your race, just for training. When I'm racing I look at my watch every single mile.
                                I actually plan on racing a couple of 5K's over the summer without a watch just for the fun of it. I'm hoping to surprise myself.

                                Not at it at all. 

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