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Feeling discouraged yet again (Read 1568 times)

    What all the others said is great.  What jumped out at me, and I think is the simplest answer, is that you need to run six times a week, even if they are only 2-3 miles each, and slow.  Avoid the walking.  Your log shows only three runs/week.

     

    I'd second this but with the caveat that I wouldn't even worry about distance yet.  I'd start by just trying to run for 10 minutes straight without any idea what your pace is.  When you can do 10 then it's time to try for 12 etc.  Until you get up to 30 minutes at some pace (no matter how slowly) I wouldn't stress about distance or speed or about targeting a specific race.

     

    Take this with a grain of salt though because I am injured 1-2x per year due to poor training practices.

    jimmyb


      Oh boy, I am scared to open up this can of worms, but I need to know.  And yes, I already did some poking around other threads using the search option before I dared post this.  Here goes....

       

      I am currently training for my second HM.  I am not fast.  I am not a long-time runner. (Just 5 years).  I am still learning new things every day about running.  My first HM was a dismal 2:55:00 - for the most part, my plan was a run 3 min/ walk 1 minute until I finished. And to keep my HR mostly below 170 for as much as possible.  My approx maxHR is 191-195.  My time sucked so much due to a poop issue right off the bat, and numerous stretching breaks throughout the race.  (both of which were due to inexperience, and arrival to the race later than anticipated).   Alas, the main reason I am even attempting this race again is to simply improve my time.  I'm pretty sure I can do it in 2:25:00 if I dont have issues again. 

       

      So here's the deal:  Lets assume my maxHR is correctly tested at 191.  Let's also assume my approximate LT HR is about 168.  Please dont ask how I tested, and the specifics.  Lets just assume that's what it is.  Also, a couple of weeks ago I decided to change my running form and pay closer attention to better mechanics - I am trying to forefoot strike more, lean slightly forward, and keep my knees below my hips.  Natually, this will lead to faster turnover (not quite 180, but higher than what Ive been running previously) and even more naturally, a HIGHER heart rate!  Thus my greivance.......my LT HR sucks as it is.  Being that I have to run/walk just to keep me as aerobic as possible, how the hell can I possiblly change my form, i.e. increase my turnover, and still be able to stay below 170-ish?   Its impossible.

       

      For instance, a 12mm mile run for me will very quickly shoot my HR up above 168....probably around 171-172ish.  So already, I am above where I want to be.  When I do speedworkouts, my HR is definitely 185 - 195.  I am damn near puking.  When I do my "tempo" runs (I am not even sure what that means for my level of fitness anyway), I am trying to keep my HR in the mid 170's - lo 180's.  But I have no idea if this is optimal.  Oh yeah, and I'm STILL  RUN/WALKING for all of these.  Its almost as if my HR will NOT stay below 168 unless I am solely walking.  Anything less than a 12mm is painful for me and obviously I can't maintain proper form

       

      I want to improve my LT HR, so my Ironman athlete friend told me I should do more speedwork to push my body to the limits and let it get used to it.  Is this right?  What do I need to do in order to get past this run/walking thing?  Do I need to see a cardiologist, is something wrong with my heart that it shoots up so quickly?  

       

      Oh, and please dont tell me to run by feel - I am still too much of a newbie to even know if what I "feel" is too much, too fast.  What I seem to think is an acceptable out-of-breathness is what everyone else would say is faster than "conversational pace"  I've learned over the years that I was consistently running in Zone 4 and 5 for ALL of my runs, even though I "felt" ok during them.   

       

      I know there are alot more questions I have, but I can't think right now. 

       

      If you are walking at those high heart rates,  you need to shift your thinking to long-term. Because it looks to me, what you are doing is heading towards injury and overtraining. You are aerobically deficient and need a lot of work at lower aerobic heart rates. You might have to walk for a while, until you an run everything. It could take a few years. But if you stick with it, it will pay off in the end. Here are a few links, take it or leave them. Read the case study. It shows what happens if you think long-term. 

       

      Aerobic running
      MAF tests
      180-age formula
      6-time Triathlon Champ Mark ALlen on heart rate training
      Mark Allen on Base Training
      Heart Rate Training Case Study

       

      Good luck!

      --JimmyCool

      Log    PRs

        To the OP: I read your write-ups of some of your runs, and I have to say that I think you've been getting some bad advice from the folks you have been interacting with.

         

        I am not going to tell you to run by feel, but I am going to tell you that you certainly should NOT be thinking about your LT or doing speedwork to lower your LT. That is a bunch of total nonsense, and actually it makes me sorta angry that people are filling your head up with this nonsense. In case you haven't noticed, the world is full of well-meaning people with a dangerous amount of knowledge.

         

        (I may be one of those people. There are tons of them on the internet.)

         

        I want to tell you one simple thing that will (I hope) help you concentrate on what's important. In coaching an athlete, one of the most basic principles is not to change too many variables at once, and your case demonstrates why.

         

        You have too much going on, too many variables in the air. That's why you are confused. You are at the beginning of a process, and you need to start at the beginning and work towards the end. (I know, duh.)

         

        The first variable, the sine-qua-non of training is: consistency. You need to be laser-focused on consistency. That's why LedLincoln's post is right on the money. Without consistency in training, you can't have anything: aerobic development, form, strength, speed--all of these things depend on consistency.

         

        So, if I were your coach or your friend, I would ask you to focus on a simple thing: What do I need to do to develop consistency in training?

         

        I don't know the answer to this question, but I would say that these are the sorts of things that help other runners achieve consistency:

        1) Forget about trying to run faster. Be happy when you get out the door and get it done.

        2) Incorporate walk breaks if you feel like walking.

        3) Develop the habit of running every day.

        4) Take away the things that create anxiety and complicate the process and distract you from your goal of developing consistency in training. (In my opinion, your heart rate monitor is one of these things.)

         

        I don't know much, but I do know that if 4 -6 weeks from now you have gotten to the point where are running or run/walking 2-6 miles every day (with an occasional day off), and it feels like a habit, then you will be in a very good place.

         

        I bet that in the process of getting there, you will even find out what the next "variable" to change--over the next 4-6 weeks--will be (and you won't have to ask your geeky tri-friends, rely on inspiration from awesome but a little over the top books like Born to Run, interpret lab-speak from silly running-lab technicians, or suffer abuse from random strangers on the internet) because you will know your own running.

         

        Good luck!

        vegefrog



           

          The second thing you should do is smile.  Every.  Single.  Run.  Research has shown that even a fake smile will create a positive association with whatever task you are doing, and will therefore make the overall experience more positive.  Plus, it makes other people wonder why you seem so damned happy.

           

           

          Smile That makes me smile. This is my sister and I running our first marathon. We smiled the whole way!!

           

          My sister and I running our first marathon

           

          cewickbe you have gotten some great advice. Take it and enjoy your running. Running should be the thing that makes your life less stressful...not adds stress to it.

            Smile That makes me smile. This is my sister and I running our first marathon. We smiled the whole way!!

             

            My sister and I running our first marathon

             

            cewickbe you have gotten some great advice. Take it and enjoy your running. Running should be the thing that makes your life less stressful...not adds stress to it.

             Great pic! Now I am smiling Smile

              To the OP: I read your write-ups of some of your runs, and I have to say that I think you've been getting some bad advice from the folks you have been interacting with.

               

              .....In case you haven't noticed, the world is full of well-meaning people with a dangerous amount of knowledge.

               

               ...

              Good luck!

               

              Great post!

              There are many people here that know what they don't know. 

              There are some people here that don't know that they don't know. 

              There are some people here that don't know that they know

              There are a few people here probably know that they may not know. 

              There are a few people here probably know that they know.

              There are a few others that know that they know.


              The challenge for us that read these forums (and learn from others outside of these forums) is to figure out who is who and what they know (or don't know).


              OP, Listen to the words of the wise (whoever the wise are) Smile

               

              Cheers,
              Brian

              (FWIW, I know that I don't know).

              2014 Goals:

              #1: Do what I can do. <DOING>

              #2: 365 Hours training <NOPE, INJURED>

               


              Consistently Slow


                 

                The first variable, the sine-qua-non of training is: consistency. You need to be laser-focused on consistency. That's why LedLincoln's post is right on the money. Without consistency in training, you can't have anything: aerobic development, form, strength, speed--all of these things depend on consistency.

                 

                 

                Good luck!

                 I was wondering where you were. Smile

                Run until the trail runs out.

                2013***1500 miles

                50 miler

                Race Less Train More

                 

                Ana Trason  "Living Her Life"

                "The Marble in The Groove"

                 

                unsolicited chatter

                http://bkclay.blogspot.com/


                Consistently Slow

                  What all the others said is great.  What jumped out at me, and I think is the simplest answer, is that you need to run six times a week, even if they are only 2-3 miles each, and slow.  Avoid the walking.  Your log shows only three runs/week.

                   Big grin

                  Run until the trail runs out.

                  2013***1500 miles

                  50 miler

                  Race Less Train More

                   

                  Ana Trason  "Living Her Life"

                  "The Marble in The Groove"

                   

                  unsolicited chatter

                  http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

                    What all the others said is great.  What jumped out at me, and I think is the simplest answer, is that you need to run six times a week, even if they are only 2-3 miles each, and slow.  Avoid the walking.  Your log shows only three runs/week.

                     

                    And I'm quoting him again.  I find that I need to run six days most weeks in order to improve.  I've been running for 8 or 9 years, and did all easy runs up till about a year ago, when I started doing a tempo run once per week.  It's been working for me. 

                     

                    That speedwork stuff is for people with a solid aerobic base and people that want to get the last ten minutes off their marathon time. 

                    onskaya


                      I don't know if this will help you, but here's my story. In January, after an 8 week hiatus, I reviewed my running for the last six months and was frankly discouraged. I thought I'd been running consistently since July, but when I reviewed my logs and was honest with myself, I realized I was not really being consistent. I put all ideas about races and dreams of ultras (ha ha) aside and set one simple goal: running every day for the month of February. Didn't have to be fast or slow, long or short, no tempo or speed work mumbo-jumbo, nothing ambitious; just every day, somewhere between two and four miles. I accomplished that goal today, and it's the single best thing I've ever done for my running. I won't say that's what you should do; I'll just say it worked for me. It helped me to realize why I run (we all have different reasons) and that I am willing to commit to it.

                       

                      Good luck! The hard work really is worth it!

                        I don't know if this will help you, but here's my story. In January, after an 8 week hiatus, I reviewed my running for the last six months and was frankly discouraged. I thought I'd been running consistently since July, but when I reviewed my logs and was honest with myself, I realized I was not really being consistent. I put all ideas about races and dreams of ultras (ha ha) aside and set one simple goal: running every day for the month of February. Didn't have to be fast or slow, long or short, no tempo or speed work mumbo-jumbo, nothing ambitious; just every day, somewhere between two and four miles. I accomplished that goal today, and it's the single best thing I've ever done for my running. I won't say that's what you should do; I'll just say it worked for me. It helped me to realize why I run (we all have different reasons) and that I am willing to commit to it.

                         

                        Good luck! The hard work really is worth it!

                         

                        That should build her up.

                         

                        (Someone will get that.)

                          That should build her up.

                           

                          (Someone will get that.)

                           That's some good Foundational stuff.


                          just a simple cat

                            That should build her up.

                             

                            (Someone will get that.)

                             Big grin

                             

                            I  guess as you get more bodacious, you begin to lose more brain cells, because there is a limit to how much magnificence your body can house

                              Ok so you all are awesome! I knew I would get great advice, as I always do here. I want to clear some things up first though. My resting hr is about 55. Right before I took on training for the half I did in November, I was playing around with the MAF running concept because I was once again discouraged and felt "lost" in the running world. I find that if I don't have something to aim for, like a race, or a training plan, I slack off on my running and struggle to find inspiration to get out there. 3 years ago I got pregnant. Before this time, my running was great ( in my opinion). I could run a 5 miler WITHOUT walking at a slow, but tolerable pace of about 11mm. I was happy running, and never dreamed of doing anything longer than a 10k. I struggle ALOT with the mental aspects of long distance running (like feeling my time might be better spent cleaning my messy house, or spending quality time with my family, or running those errands I never seem to get done). But I also need to run- to relieve some stress, to get a little escape from everyday life. But I'm also someone who like data. I like to see if my pace is improving. I like to watch my HR and correlate it with how I am feeling at the time. I like to plot all this crap over time and see if I can run more each month. So giving up the technical things would be extremely difficult for me. But I agree with the more experienced runners that this is probably exactly what I need. But I've already registered for the half in May. Do I just abandon the training plan now and go all hippie style running for a while. Do I have to go "find myself" in my running now?! Haha! This is the last thing I want to really stress in regards to my abilities......I do not live a lifestyle that enables me to run more than 3 days a week. I strive for at least 4 days a week and it always fails. It's just my life. Please don't take this as being negative (which kinda ticked me off when I was accused of this to be honest), I am simply being honest with myself. I work night shift 10 hr shifts half of my week, and then switch back to a day person for the other half of the week. I do this every week, for the past 6 years. The comstant switching up of my sleeping habits already takes a tough toll on me. I am a full-time career woman, a wife, and a mother to a 2 year old toddler. Any of you who have children should immediately understand this added difficulty to any lifestyle! So when I say that running 3 times a week is hard enough for me to pull off, please know that I am serious! I'm already dreading running anything longer than 7 miles in this training plan because of the sheer time suck it presents to me. Maybe i do have to seriously re-think the way I approach running right now. Working on improving my aerobic capacity is my main goal so if I need to completely start over and throw all my running tricks out the window, maybe it's time to really consider doing that. I just don't know. This is why I always feel conflicted. This is exactly why I got involved with my mini-running group and coach, but it seems to be making running life even more difficult for me. I would love to find a partner who coul hang with my slow pace enough so that I could actually understand what it's like to hold a conversation while running! But I just don't know anybody with similar fairness levels to me right now. Thanks again for all the valuable insight thus far. I really appreciate the fact that you guys take the time to listen, mull it all over in your heads, and then sit down to type me such long and thoughtful replies. <3>
                                Oh and I swear I typed separate paragraphs so this wouldn't all be a jumbled mess, but apparently it doesn't translate that way from my iPad. Sorry!
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