long run pace question (Read 1423 times)

The main reason I ask, some weeks I get really dead legs, and I also feel I need more than one rest day to fully recover. I have tried slowing things to say 8:30 pace for the long runs, but just really weares me out. I feel much more comfortable in the 8:15-8:20 range. Could it just be my 40 year old body needs more recover time?

One thing to note, you didn't mention whether you are talking about dead legs during and immediately after your long runs or just the general feeling of dead legs during the week. Running mileage and intensity are not the only factors that contribute to dead legs. Poor recovery can be a major factor as well, and that includes not getting enough sleep or not getting proper nutrition. With 2 kids keeping you busy, sleep may take a backseat, but that is a vital ingredient in running.

Yeah, um, just slow down a bit. Kk?

... I have tried slowing things to say 8:30 pace for the long runs, but just really weares me out. I feel much more comfortable in the 8:15-8:20 range. Could it just be my 40 year old body needs more recover time?

This sounds like the classic case of your aerobic base not being developed. Your fast-twitch fibers (and those slow-twitchers which have been recruited by the fast side) have been trained so that you can run faster and feel comfortable, but slowing down gets you worn out faster. This is described in the literature, I don't have the reference at the moment, maybe one of the low heart rate training gurus. If you added a lot of easy running to the 20 - 30 mpw you're doing now, that would be a good start. Or just build a good aerobic base first, and only then add the speedwork, tempo runs, etc. A 40 year old body will do fine if it's trained for endurance. I have always been "slow"... my best 400m was about 75 sec at age 40. My mile best was 5:45. However, I logged 60 - 75 mpw, most of it at comfortable "conversational" pace. At age 40 I ran a marathon in 2:57, got 3 hours sleep, drove 180 miles, and ran another marathon the next day (slower... 3:41... but what the heck.) I ran 40 miles on my 40th birthday, about 5 hours 45 minutes or so... just run easy and put in the mileage and you will get the rewards. Good luck, and good running... Gino

>I am currently running my long runs at a pace of around 8:15-8:20 for the 10 miles. Does this sound too fast? Yes, definitely >have tried slowing things to say 8:30 pace for the long runs, but just really weares me out. I feel much more comfortable in the 8:15-8:20 range. Yet you say this: >I also feel I need more than one rest day to fully recover There’s no way that 8:30 pace is going to wear you out more than 8:15-8:20. I think it’s an illusion. >The speedwork usually consists of either 10-12 repeat 200`s at about 6:00 minutes per mile, or 8-10 400`s at 6:10-6:20 pace And here is the end result of doing those workouts: >My 5-K race pace averages 6:25 and 10-K around 7:00-7:20. Your endurance is way out of line with your speed even though you do those brisk 10 milers. If you can run 5k at 6:25 pace, you should be able to run 10k in well under 42 minutes (6:40 pace). What is happening with you is very typical of a low mileage, higher intensity approach. Here’s what I would do: 1. Hold your long run to about a 1/3 of your total for the week and slow it down to 8:30-8:50 range for most of the run—no faster--but you can pick it up for last couple miles, finishing at quicker than 8-min pace if you feel good. 2. Ditch the 200’s-400's and do a tempo run of 3 miles at 6:50-7:00 pace one week; on alternate weeks do 6 x 800 at 3:22, or 5 x 1000 at 4:12. Take a half lap (200 meters) recovery jog between each. Warm up at least 2 miles for these workouts and cool down another mile or 2. You can speed up your paces accordingly as your race times improve, but not until then. 3. Run as many days each week as you possibly can, running most of your miles at a slow or easy pace. On 1 or 2 of those easy days, add 6-8 relaxed strides of apprx 100 meters each at a quick, but relaxed pace—not much faster than 5k effort. Where I think many runners go wrong is that they go like hell, take a day or 2 off to recover, and keep repeating the cycle. It takes a lot of practice and a willingness to do so, but if you dole out your energy in just the right amounts you won’t need all those days off and you won’t feel worn out all the time. There is an art to recovering without coming to a complete stop. Sometimes you might even need to skip a key workout, but rather than take days off, just run slowly until you feel the energy coming back. If you don’t have the time, you don’t have the time, but this is a way to see real improvement that will continue for a long time. Fwiw, I have found that my ability to recover has improved markedly as I have gradually worked up to where I now run almost every day and do more total volume. I struggled a lot more when my running was more hit and miss with lower mileage. This in spite of the fact that I began my push to run more often and further just prior to turning 59 more than 3 years ago. Forty is still very young.

I would get rid of intervals for all but a couple of 8 week seasons a year (goal races), and the tempo runs can be cut the same way. If you only do one or the other, do tempo runs. I could see doing the tempo runs year round, but as with any speedwork, it increases your chance for injury. I am huge on periodization as you can tell. Base phase is very important, especially when you are a beginner. But the idea of peaking and then coming out of it will more than likely keep someone from burning out. No burnout means the person is more likely to continue training all year round and keep increasing ability for quite a while. Now after you hit 10 years, there might be some sort of drop off. I will tell ya when I get there.

I will tell you that upping the weekly mileage is NOT an option. My body starts having injury problems after 30 MPW or more. That is why I HAVE to maximize the workouts within the weekly time frame that I have.

I understand the way you feel, but I'm sure a number of us here think that this logic might be a little backwards. IOW, it's very possible that the reason your body starts having injury problems after 30 mpw or more is that you're running too hard and don't have the proper base. Low mileage higher-intensity programs can have this effect on some folks. It's kind of like a catch-22 : you have to run hard because you can only do 30-35 mpw and want to get the best effect; you can't do more mpw because you get injured when you do; the reason for the injuries is the running hard without the aerobic base; the reason for not having the base is the lack of easy aerobic mpw... If you have the opportunity, think about getting a good VO2 test, which shows (among other things) your Respiratory Exchange Ratio (RER) as a function of heart rate (HR). [Note that the RER is also called the Respiratory Quotient (RQ).] If you are doing most of your running with an RER > 0.85, then you are burning mostly carbs for fuel and your endurance training of the slow-twitch fibers can be shortchanged. My personal experience is that easy running with more mpw has *dramatically* decreased my likelihood of injury. Who knows? This might not work for you... all I can say is it works for me. Have you read "Bowerman and the Men of Oregon"? If not, check out the section where Kenny Moore describes Bowerman's meeting and discussion with Sebastian Coe. IMHO, anyone doing a low-mileage program should pay a lot of attention to Coe's training regime and how he had all those world records while running less than half the mileage of most of his competitors. It just might be right up your alley. Take it easy, Gino

I am with the two MAFfers above me. Slow down to speed up. Run more. All the reasons have been stated previously.

I am with the two MAFfers above me. Slow down to speed up. Run more. All the reasons have been stated previously.

Your log intrigues me. Back in Sept/Oct '07 your mpm were all over the place (which is fine) but then all of the sudden it is very structured pace wise...with almost weekly drops in mpm. Is that low heart rate training? Or do you just feel when it is time to step it up? I have only been running for 4 years; but once I was able to run up to 10 miles consistently at a time-I kept running them at my one and only pace-somewhere between 9-10 mpm; then I trained for a marathon, and continued to train at that same pace (even my long runs)-also adding 200s and 400s while only topping out at 35mpw. You can guess what happened-I was injured all over the place. So my new year's resolution was to slow down, but now I feel I have slowed down too much and am losing fitness. I ran a tempo run the other night and could barely finish (the tempo was almost a minute SLOWER per mile than my 5k PR...not fast, imo)-not because of my legs, but my lungs. So now I want to pickup the pace a little bit-but am afraid to add too much too soon. I am nearing 30 mpw again, injury free-and only ever want to run near 40 mpw. This is where the question about your log comes in-how did you know when to increase?