Running faster on tired legs (Read 2144 times)

So, HA! You're not disagreeing with me if I agree with you!!! So you lost and I won!

I was going to name this thread "Can somebody point me to the thread that includes suggestions on how to run faster on tired legs?" because I am sure it is addressed somewhere. My problem: maintaing my pace in the last 5 miles of the marathon. The symptoms: pacing is great for the first twenty miles and then declines, and I miss my goal time. The latest example I have is Hyannis from two days ago... plugging along cranking out 735's +/- until I got to 20... then they fell to 8's and 9's. Happily, these declines in pace are far less than the previous several, but they still exist. Does anybody have any suggestions? I was hoping to run hyannis in 3:21 and came in just under 3:29, which is exciting but when I look at the graph of my splits, it looks a lot like all the others!

Here's a few thoughts. --Your pacing wasn't great. You don't have the endurance to run 7:35's for 26.2 miles. Yet. Although, you might be starting too fast. I can't tell from your post. If you are going for an overall 7:35 pace, then you should start out a little slower than that in the first few miles, then get up to the pace. Still, that sort of decline is the usual graph of a runner with not enough endurance. I looked at your personal records and it looks like you have the speed for a 7:35 pace. --figure out how to determine what pace you can actually run before you get to the starting line. That's where keeping a solid running log comes in, as well as doing certain runs during each marathon training period the same way, and learning how to use the on-line McMillan calculator. Some use heart rate monitors and will do race pace tempo runs at a certain heart rate. The more you keep track, and if you do certain runs the same way every time, you can compare to past training sessions to help you ascertain a race pace. You can't get to the starting line just guessing. -work exclusively on your endurance for awhile. Build a rock solid aerobic base. Google "aerobic base". The basic idea is to stay aerobic for awhile with no anaerobic work. Then slowly introduce tempos, Fartlek, or intervals, but not over do them. FInd what works for you. Build your base. Base to me doesn't mean miles. It means developing a rock solid aerobic system which means developed slow-twitch fibers, mitochondria, etc. Marathons are nearly 100% aerobic events. Your fast twitch fibers, which are generally anaerobic, don't really come into play except for bursts of speed at the end. There are different methods of building base. Choose the one that has less impact on your amateur body. --remember that you are an amateur. Don't run the amount of miles that elites do, but attempt to mirror the time they spend in their workouts. Two hour long runs are enough. Two and half hours tops. Take ample rest and recovery on days after hard workouts. Your body cannot adapt without it. I know amateur runners who will race while marathon training and not take enough rest during the weeks they race. They keep the same high volume, and often they end up injured or sick, or they tank at the marathon. Rest. Recover. Your body will reward you with gains. --suggestions of 24-28 mile long runs to an amateur might not be good advice. Your body only knows duration and what fuel or fibers it is using. That's a lot of time on your feet with no real gains except mental. I can tell you from my own experience that two and half hours, tops, is all you need. I have made my best marathon times on long runs that added up to 15-17 miles.

thanks grandma... so i have been summarizing the discussion for my wife (or perhaps for me, just to simplify and keep clear in my mind) and if I pull the nuggets of wisdom from what I have seen, I am hearing run longer, and slower (miles at aerobic)... and it seems like I have a decision to make: My 3:28 is 96% of where I am shooting for... i feel like a little tweak here and there could (should?) do the trick... maybe take another shot in ten weeks: or is my 96% simply the best I can do given my current condition.., and to alter my condition, i need to forget about the next shot for the moment (meaning not in ten weeks, maybe not in 20) and first build the aerobic base, then determine when my next shot is and adjust for that... does that seem like a fair assessment? I have a HRM and used it fairly often in the last 6 weeks. it is basic and doesnt do much other than show me what is going on at the moment... can you recommend a better device that could perhaps store some data and alleviate my need for the HRM AND a watch? (FWIW, i love my timex watch - if that thing could show me HR and store some info for max and average for a workout, it would be ideal)

I'm not one to really call out too many people on this because I overthink, but I think you need to stop worrying about HR and %'s based on your current fitness and just run more. That's been the recurring theme of advice given to you is run more. Add the miles and see what happens. You don't know what can happen in 10 weeks if you add more miles.

I have a HRM and used it fairly often in the last 6 weeks. it is basic and doesnt do much other than show me what is going on at the moment... can you recommend a better device that could perhaps store some data and alleviate my need for the HRM AND a watch? (FWIW, i love my timex watch - if that thing could show me HR and store some info for max and average for a workout, it would be ideal)

http://www.amazon.com/Timex-Ironman-T5C401-Digital-Fitness/dp/B000221VOA/ref=pd_sim_sg_1 Why give up the Ironman? Get this one instead! I use it and have been very happy with it. DOn't let the "Midsize" throw you... I'm a big guy and I find it more comfortable than some of the larger watches. Hey, are you running the Clamdigger this year? That's my 5mi target race this year. Maybe I'll see you there!

thanks grandma... so i have been summarizing the discussion for my wife (or perhaps for me, just to simplify and keep clear in my mind) and if I pull the nuggets of wisdom from what I have seen, I am hearing run longer, and slower (miles at aerobic)... and it seems like I have a decision to make: My 3:28 is 96% of where I am shooting for... i feel like a little tweak here and there could (should?) do the trick... maybe take another shot in ten weeks: or is my 96% simply the best I can do given my current condition.., and to alter my condition, i need to forget about the next shot for the moment (meaning not in ten weeks, maybe not in 20) and first build the aerobic base, then determine when my next shot is and adjust for that... does that seem like a fair assessment? I have a HRM and used it fairly often in the last 6 weeks. it is basic and doesnt do much other than show me what is going on at the moment... can you recommend a better device that could perhaps store some data and alleviate my need for the HRM AND a watch? (FWIW, i love my timex watch - if that thing could show me HR and store some info for max and average for a workout, it would be ideal)

Work on aerobic base. Think long term. Forgive my memory, but at the moment I don't know when your last marathon was, but using the rest of winter and most of spring to build your base, doing some races and tempo work in late spring early summer, then getting back to base work for a fall marathon, you could probably make that slowing disappear. I always tell people when they ask advice to spend the same amount of time on your feet as an elite for aerobic long runs, but don't run their mileage. Same with tempos. And don't do their doubles. Since you are an amateur, and most likely not a kid anymore, take more rest on your recovery days than they do. There's a big difference in the ability to recover between a 45 year old and a 25 year old. I've seen many runners, myself included, who, once they started to take proper recovery, and to run by time, they improved more and stayed healthy. Setbacks become a rarity. At my age, I take even more rest! If you use a heart rate monitor and want some more frills like ones that keep laps and average heart rate for each lap, and perhaps one with a warning beep, there are plenty of sub 100.00 watches. Polars are good. If you want super frills, the Garmin 305 is an amazing machine and are the cheapest on Amazon. A heart rate monitor is a great training tool. I've been using one for well over a decade. Even if you just use it for recovery runs, it will help a great deal to keep you from overdoing it in your overall training. My kitty calls for food. Be well.

all of you guys have been great - my first post to these forums outside of my club and the responses have been fast, furious, substantive, humorous, and edgy when needed. hope i can give as much as i get.

You've come to a good place. There are a lot of really great runners who want to help others be really great runners. There's no elitist mentality with people. Just take their advice. Many of them have dedicated themselves to being better runners and they've figured out how to get there. After my last marathon, I was in the exact same boat that you were in and they told me to jump up my mileage. I have a half scheduled for March 28, which will really show me how much of a difference things have made, but even just day-to-day running, I've noticed a huge difference with my pace, heart rate, and recovery. Everything is easier. I can't wait for April 25 to kick my marathon's tail. Good luck and stick around.

too funny - i came damn close to responding to grandma by saying that the advice sounds remarkably familiar to somebody that I usually turn to for advice named Jimmy who is on these boards - but didnt know who is still in witness protection, or on parole, or what the etiquette is for naming names, so I avoided it altogether... adventurous huh?!

Last Fall I did what you are trying to accomplish, with the exact problem you have of fading in the last 4-6 miles of my marathons. I dropped my PR from a 3:30 down to a 3:18, a BQ time. I did it with sustained consistent mileage with a medium long run of 12-14 miles in the middle of the week, once a week tempo runs of 4-7 miles at 15K race pace, and a long run on Sunday of 18-22 miles. I also stopped training with anything other than water, but I drank Gatorade in the race and used the water to cool myself off in the 80 degree temps I was racing in. Also, beware of a taper that is too drastic, it can leave you lead legged. Check out my training log from August through October 12th. I agree with a lot of the things Nobby said, particularly what he said about your long runs not mattering so much if your mileage is up around 70 a week. Doing 24 and 26 mile long runs are unnecessary and possibly counter-productive if it leaves you unable to run at optimal levels in the days that follow.