Running faster on tired legs (Read 2144 times)

I think if you run more in training on tired legs, eventually you will be able to run faster on tired legs. Either that, or your legs won't get tired--even better. Don't mean to sound glib, but sometimes simple problems have simple solutions.

the most significant change I made between training for my marathon in october and this last one was increasing weekly mileage, and it it seems to have caused some improvement. Someone has suggested to me to add a longer midweek run - something in the ten to 12 mile range. would you agree? and I am curious about your suggestion for longest long run? 20? 22? 24?

I was going to name this thread "Can somebody point me to the thread that includes suggestions on how to run faster on tired legs?" because I am sure it is addressed somewhere. My problem: maintaing my pace in the last 5 miles of the marathon. The symptoms: pacing is great for the first twenty miles and then declines, and I miss my goal time. The latest example I have is Hyannis from two days ago... plugging along cranking out 735's +/- until I got to 20... then they fell to 8's and 9's. Happily, these declines in pace are far less than the previous several, but they still exist. Does anybody have any suggestions? I was hoping to run hyannis in 3:21 and came in just under 3:29, which is exciting but when I look at the graph of my splits, it looks a lot like all the others!

The very first thing you'll need to do is to make sure what you're experiencing is in fact "ired legs". There are different resons why people slow down in the latter part of the marathon. For example, from what I see in your picture, you look quite adequately dressed... Is it from the marathon you ran? Overheating is more of an issue in running a marathon than underdressing (in the actual race, that is...) though underdressing CAN be a factor for slowing down. Dehydration...depleting energy... Was the first part of the course hilly at all? And mental toughness, or lack thereof, can also be a factor. Just by looking at the graph and see you slowed down in the final 6 miles really don't mean that much at all--YOU need to analyze it a bit more deeply. If it is infact tired legs, actually one of the simpliest solution would be 1) to have a superlong run, or 2) do a workout when your legs are tired. For a competitive runner, I have suggested to go as far as 28 miles in training to avoid "bonking". Or you may be able to take the Hanson's approach of doing some solid workout when your legs are tired--a 6 miles tempo run the day after 18-miler...something like hat. Some Japanese elite runners do what they call a sandwitch system where they would do long-speed-long 3 days in a row; or speed-long-speed. In the case of Toshihiko Seko, he might do 40k--3X5k--40k...something like that, followed next 4 or 5 days by easy jogging. Frankly, if the specific issue here is slowin down due to "tired legs", all the increase in the world in weekly mileage (to a point) won't do you any good. I mean, most likely, increasing from 10 miles everyday to 12 miles everday won't help you survive from the wall at 20-miles. Specifically, I would opt more to suggest doing a very long run on the weeked, say, alternate between 24~26 miles with 14~16 miles the next weekend to give yourself a breather. Actually, for a 3:30 runner, it may be better to do a super long run once in 3 weeks... You can still do mid-week semi-long run of, say, I don't know, 12ish? But I wouldn't try to have two half-a$$ long run (like 18 and 20); once again, if your issue is in fact tired legs in the final 6 miles, I would inclined to do a super long run incorporated in your program.

Either run a tad slower the 1st 20 or stop slowing down the last 6.2 - Wussy Most of us feel like we have to slow down the last 6.2 - Not everyone does Did you pass out? You can slow down when you pass out. Or ... Add more mileage like they said.

Thanks for the replies!! Knobby - to your questions... that pic is from the half in hyannis in 2007. Two days ago it was about 37 and overcast before the rain came in when i was on mile 23 or so. I wore two long sleeve tech shirts and tights... white knit gloves were on and off intermittently. I tend to get cold on long runs, especially as soon as I finish. I get those disgusting gross white fingers as soon as I finish. I didnt sweat much in the race - at least not much in terms of drops of sweat. In most marathons I have run, I get quad and calf cramps. this one I did not... It just seemed as if I could not turn my legs over any faster than i was and it was coming up with 8's at the end. Nutritionally, I never felt hungry during the race. I had gu at 5/10/15 and gatorade at every stop (~ 3miles). I had planned another gu at 20 but was kind of gassy by 20 so i skipped it. I felt well nourished both during and after the race (normally I am famished) - this was an area that I concentrated on after the problems I had in October. Could it be mental toughness - sure. I have a hard time convincing myself 100% that I can run a certain time until I have actally done it. Looking at the logs of the folks that have replied, they are putting in a hell of a lot more miles than me (which is making me believe the biggest gap in my training is insufficient miles)

Once again, you need to clearly define your problems before you move on and prescribe yourself a solution. Craming is totally different from any other issues. Increasing total weekly mileage would improve your aerobic development but, if your legs cramp up or got so beaten up from pouding, you'll be one of thoese folks who would say, at the finish, "I wasn't tired, I could talk just find but I couldn't move my legs..." Over all "tired legs" may or may not have come from energy issue--GU might help with that, better carbo loading, etc. If it's actual cramping, you may want to have a second look on your fulid itake during the race. Some electralite may be too strong tha it actually upset your mineral balance and possibly causes cramping. If the issue is beaten up legs from pouding; well, you may need to look into (1) practing eccentic exercise like downhill running to strengthen your quads; (2) get lighter; or (3) work on lighter form. In termsof hydration, there's actually an interesting new study done on Kenyan runners--apparently they don't take much fluid during the marathon at all. This Greek physiologist, or I should say Swedish but Greek decent, did quite extensive study on Kenyan runners and noticed the body weight loss due to NOT hydrating during the race/training run. He semi-concluded that most westers take too much fluid for more effective running performance. To me, taking all those drinks are half marketing driven. Not all; but quite a big part. I wouldn't say one way or the other though because I don't know enough about the details. But there IS such thing as over-hydration.

Another approach several on here advocate is a series of fast-finish long runs, once you have the base in place to support long runs. If you can do your long runs without significant walking or feeling completely trashed at the end (tired, yes, but not completely beat up), then you may want to consider this. The idea is to pick up the pace near the end of your long run from your easy pace to your marathon pace (or even a little faster). This gets both your legs and your brain used to finishing and running fast with tired legs. Start with doing this for the last 4 miles of your long run (say, 18-20 miles, if that's your normal long run). On your next long run (usually 2 weeks later), make it 6 miles at marathon pace, at the end of the run. Two weeks later, 8 miles @ MP. If you're completely beat up after one of these, repeat the same fast-finish distance rather than increasing (i.e. repeat the 6 @ MP instead of going up to 8 @ MP). The fast-finish advocates don't recommend going longer than 10 @ MP - apparently it doesn't give much benefit in comparison to the toll it takes and the recovery required. And on the alternate weekend to these long runs, the workout is usually a shorter long run (i.e 13 miles or so, compared to 18-20), and at an easy pace the entire time.

It's sort of exciting to disagree with Nobby! Here goes. Really it's not a disagreement, but more of a matter of different emphasis. Try the super-long runs if you like. I want to encourage you to push your overall training volume a bit more. An argument could be made that you are not reaping the benefits of your regular long runs because you don't have enough volume during the week. It is one thing to run a 20 miler after having already run 40 miles that week, and another to run a 20 miler on top of 20 miles. The first 20 miler is run with some of your muscles already in a state of fatigue, so you are activating deeper fibers, developing the "deep strength" of the marathoner. Another thing I noticed looking back through your log is that you have a lot of off days built into your schedule. This may be an inescapable fact of your life, but perhaps your are recovering too much between sessions so that you are not stimulating new fibers on your long runs and teaching your tired fibers to go faster during your up-tempo sessions. Perhaps its a false dichotomy: the super-long run or the bump in overall volume. Both are strategies that may help. The choice you make will perhaps depend most on the time you have to train during the week and how you feel about slogging it out for 4+ hours. Finally, there is nothing special about slowing down in the latter part of the marathon. It's just like slowing down in a 5k: you went out too fast for your training. You didn't have the endurance to maintain the pace. This is the problem. It can be fixed simply.